Talk sense to me about DD not applying to Oxbridge

[MixedFeeling]

DD is very strong academically, straight 9s at GCSE and on track for 4 A stars at A level. She wants to study psychology.

I’d always imagined she might apply to Oxford or Cambridge but yesterday she told me that she doesn’t want to. Her reasons are that she thinks it will be stressful, that she thinks the other students will be too serious and she wants to be in a bigger city with more going on. On her list are Bristol, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Leeds.

WWYD? I don’t know whether I should just leave it or ask her to give it more thought- I think she’s wrong about Oxbridge students all being serious and it being especially stressful (DH and I were both at Cambridge and that was certainly not our experience- our friends were a mixed bag and the tutorial system was very supportive. Nb I’m aware that the fact we were both there has probably subconsciously informed our expectations for DD.)

Obviously the choice is hers ultimately. But I don’t want her to decide based on false information or fear of failure and then regret it. Keep talking or leave it?

My daughter sounds much like yours. She’s flip flopping about oxbridge, and I’ll leave it to her mainly because I flip flop a bit as well! I do worry about the pressure.

Anyway, has she considered Bath? I only ask we we did a tour there recently and although my daughter’s interests are as far away from psychology as you can get, our tour guide was studying psychology and she was absolutely loving it at Bath and mentioned that it was in the top 5 for the course in the UK.

If he has gone somewhere that only recruits from oxford and Cambridge he has NOT gone to a top law firm.

Have you visited Oxford or Cambridge or studied their recent stats vs those of middle class Mumsnet favs Bristol Exeter Bath and Durham?

It’s definitely not the be all and end all but it would be good if she made the decision based on accurate information rather than stereotypes. Experimental Psychology at Oxford is a great course. They work hard but there’s time to do other stuff too.
How about having a mother/daughter trip with her to one of the open days? Oxford Open Days 2023 There will be talks in the Department in the morning and free meals in many of the Colleges. She’ll be able to meet current students and tutors. Maybe visit some of the more modern/ less stuffy Colleges like St Anne’s, Mansfield, St Catherine’s.
Oxford has some decent shopping, lovely park, Museums etc so you can do other interesting stuff while you’re there if she takes a bit of persuading. Maybe even offer to take one of her friends with you too so she has a fun time. Or send them off to visit independently.

DD is at Cambridge, she was adamant she wanted to go and works really really hard. I think her course (maths) is fast paced but I don't think it's unique. But it's intense (50-60 hours per week) and I do not think her university experience is normal - however she is very happy.

I went to Manchester and was very encouraging of putting that down on the list as I had a fantastic time. She got an offer but didn't love it enough even to put down as her insurance choice / the grade offer was same as Cambridge. I'm still a bit wistful though!

I think OP you have to step back and let your daughter choose her own path here. I do think her perception is fairly accurate and it's important she picks what she thinks she wants / is right for her. I think that for these young adulrs autonomy with these choices is important, whether it turns out to be the right decision or the wrong decision - it is theirs.

NRTFT but I was in a very similar position to your DD a few years ago, achieving relatively well academically and parents very keen on me applying for Oxbridge. In a sort of reverse of your situation, there was no family history of university so I think they were desperate not to hold me back!

I was fairly certain it wasn't the place for me and didn't fancy my chances of getting in in the first place, but I gave it a go to avoid any 'what ifs' (and, yes, to keep my parents happy). It's true that there's a more complicated admissions procedure and you have to be ready earlier, but in some ways this helped me out because it took some of the pressure off later on.

I ended up interviewing but not getting in (as predicted 😁), was a bizarre experience but makes for some funny stories now and weirdly I did make friends at the interview that I still talk to. Hindsight is 20/20 and I am certain now that it would not have been right for me even if I was successful - those I know that have gone have disproportionately struggled with mental health concerns (though that's not confined to Oxbridge) and the workload is intense.

The process ended up working out for me but my gut feeling was right and it's likely hers is too. I think if I had felt like I 'needed' to attend to live up to expectations there would have been a fair amount of resentment if I struggled. Obviously you know your daughter best, but try not to pile on the pressure if you can avoid it. I went to another RG uni in the end, was very happy and am now graduating with similar prospects to lots of my friends that went to Oxbridge, so it really isn't the be all and end all!

Honestly I’d leave it. I’m a grad recruiter in ad tec and we don’t look at university. We much prefer a candidate to be humble, willing to learn, respectful to colleagues etc. It’s her time to fly into the world on her own, let her go where she wants, it’ll all work out fine 😀

I think it’s something you’ve got to really want. I found the Cambridge course in my subject was light years ahead of any other uni including Oxford whose syllabus was disappointing. And I was clear that I wanted to go somewhere historic and beautiful. I didn’t find it particularly pressured, but I’d always been at very academic schools so it was more of the same, and I’m also quite lazy, which helps.

It certainly won’t affect her career prospects to go to a red brick, so it’s all about the course and the experience, that’s what she should focus on.

None of my 5 wanted to try and I didn't try either (3 of mine went to Bristol - those 3 are lawyer or almost lawyers). The view of my children was they probably would not get in and that the extra effort to try to get in was therefore potentially a waste of time and they would rather spend that time on something else.

Anyway in this case just give the daughter and pros and cons and let her decide.

Your dd is clearly bright, confident, and capable of researching her own choices, making her own choices and owning her choices. I would leave her be. At least if she doesn’t apply to Cambridge, you will never have the worry that, if she is unhappy there, she might not have made the mistake of choosing it if you had not told her how marvellous it was and persuaded her to apply...

Curious - how did being quite lazy help you at Cambridge?

If she wants to study clinical psychology she is better off going to a uni that offers a year out to get experience. I’m not sure Oxford or Cambridge does. Happy to be corrected.

It meant I preferred to work smart not hard, I developed strategies to marshal large amounts of info quickly, so I could go to the pub. And I didn’t get stressed about work as some do as I’m not a driven perfectionist.

Ime a bit of natural laziness is a good balance to high pressure environments.

I don’t think laziness is actually helpful, but agree that perfectionism is a problem. Working harder than you actually want to in order to try to measure up to the ridiculously high standards that you have set yourself is not healthy. I worked very hard, and was happy to work hard, at Oxford, but only to the point I was still enjoying it. If you find your subject genuinely interesting, you can enjoy it for a substantial number of hours per week!

I do have good time management skills - they were extremely useful, as I had a good inbuilt sense of how much time I was taking to get things done, so could plan to ensure I was finished on time to carry out my equally important social and leisure commitments, and that was far more helpful than being lazy would have been. People perceived to be “lazy” tend to procrastinate, or just generally hope work will go away if they ignore it, or just appear to be that way because they are disorganised, or struggle with time management and prioritisation. I’m not sure how people with dyspraxia or ADHD cope with the workload as a result, but can imagine that could potentially make the workload a bit more of a struggle.

I’m not actually interested in whether you think it’s helpful or not to be fair. I define laziness quite differently to you and my interpretation doesn’t include procrastination, ignoring work, or disorganisation which are quite separate issues. You don’t have to be lazy to do any or all of those things.

I was at Oxford in the 1980s doing joint honours in an arts subject and the workload was insane with very heavy reading lists in the vacations as well. I did not even suggest to my own DC that they apply. So I am surprised that you say that you did not find it too demanding. Having said that modern technology might well make studying easier.
Also the degree result was entirely based on the final week of exams exams with no prior work counting towards your result. This no longer seems to be the case at most other Universities.
If your DC does apply, they should do so on the basis that the odds are against them and not view it as a failure if they do not get in.
Best wishes.

Agree. These days, the top law firms are big on diversity, inclusion and social mobility or at least they like to tout these stripes. They will make a big deal of NOT just hiring from Oxbridge. That is retrograde and will get them negative publicity.

@Mirabai Did I say you have to be interested, or are you just unnecessarily rude to people? I explained why I disagree that being lazy is helpful by defining my view of what a more common perception of laziness is. I didn’t insist you or anyone else either find that interesting or agree with me.

You came up with a subjective definition of laziness that you’re now trying to spin as “common perception”. Laziness simply indicates an unwillingness to make an effort, which can be interpreted any way you like. The comment was tongue in cheek anyway, which seems to have completely passed you by.

There was a comment higher up about Oxbridge having the leading academics - which it often does and referred to someone being taught by the author of the textbook. that can happen elsewhere - was taught Tort law by Street of "Street on Torts". One of my other lecturers was the lady who became our most senior female judge at the Supreme Court - Lady Justice Hale as she now is. I was not at Oxbridge.

If any of my 5 had wanted to try Oxbridge I would have been all for it. However there are other good universities too.

Top law firms recruit from lots of different universities but want people with top grades whether that be from Oxbridge or otherwise. I think I got my first newly qualfied job because I had a university entrance scholarship after sitting 3 x 3 hour exams, was top of year 1 and won a scholarship for that in year 2 and then was top and joint top in year 3 including in the subject for which the law firm was recruiting. The fact I was not at Oxbridge did not put them off then any more than now.

I like your advice here - can I cheekily ask what your opinion is on getting teenagers to revise. Our eldest is just starting GSCEs and doesn’t do any work outside of school other than homework that he need to hand in (which he has perfected doing on the bus on the way into school!) He’s done well and his teachers are full of praise at parents evening. But he does no revision outside of what he does in school time. In year 7 & year 8, I helped him manage his time and actively helped him revise. This year I’ve stepped back because he doesn’t want my help anymore. I was extremely academically able but struggled to apply myself to revise and did well but “not as well as I could have done” and he’s clearly going the same way. Do you have any tips for me with your “teacher hat” on? We want to just leave him to it as anything else is going to impact our relationship with him if he doesn’t want the help but I think subconsciously he thinks I’ll rescue him from himself (as that’s my natural inclination!). Am I right to feel if he wanted it enough he would do more? I wasn’t held back in any way from the life I wanted by “not quite meeting my potential”.

It depends what kind of psych she wants to do, for a start. Oxford Psych is very lab and science based. Tbh, it is quite pressurised, and tbf, DS (who does it as part of a joint honours) does work way harder than a sibling at a non Oxbridge uni in order to gain similar grades. He does go clubbing, go to parties, and is very active in at least two extra curriculars so he's not always in the library but the friends of his I've met are pretty serious, earnest people.

If she wants more of a party city atmosphere there are lots of other good places she could look at. UCL or KCL are both very highly regarded if she wants to be in London. Bristol or Sussex (Brighton) is good if she likes that arty vibe, or if she prefers a smaller town, Durham, Exeter or Surrey (Guildford) and there are lots of good courses in Scotland.

My DD applied, having been encouraged to by her teachers. Her interview involved an overnight stay in the college and socialising with other applicants. While she found it an interesting experience, she felt very much like a fish out of water, and at the end of it said she'd far rather go to her first or second choice of university.

She didn't get a place, so it was all academic, but in hindsight I'm very glad. She's an anxious perfectionist and I think the pressure wouldn't have been healthy for her.

She got in at her first choice uni (which had a better reputation for her subject than Cambridge did anyway) and did exceptionally well.

So yes, I wouldn't push Oxbridge unless your DD is fully up for it.

Would she even be able to study a straight psychology degree at Cambridge?