DS wants to drop out of Oxford - and it's largely my fault

[Distressedstudent]

My DS is a fresher at Oxford and not enjoying it one bit - the intensive work load, the lack of contact hours, the general 'nerdiness' of it. He had wanted to go to York but, as he was predicted (and got) 4 x A star, we urged him to apply to Oxford (where we went - he had no intention of applying) and then, when he got his offer, to firm it. He very reluctantly agreed after talking to his teachers who said he'd be nuts to turn down Oxford, even though his heart was set on York.

He sees his friends from school having a blast at other universities whereas he has his nose to the grind at Oxford. He is now planning to see his Director of Studies and to see if York will take him from September (to read the same humanities course). He is not interested in my advice as DH and I 'got it wrong' and gave him 'duff advice' (his words).

I am not sure if I am up to replying to anyone kind enough to offer their thoughts because I feel so miserable/disappointed/guilty on his behalf.

If you/he can afford it I would start again in the first year, so he gets the 'whole" experience.

I know plenty of people who changed degrees and universities in the past, and always appeared to be the correct decision for them.

I also agree at some point high achieving students used to coasting along quite easily will hit a wall and struggle. I was a postgraduate in Oxbridge, but did my undergraduate at a more normal university in a city that was huge fun. I'm very glad not to have done an undergraduate oxbridge degree, as terms seem so short and intense. As a Oxbridge postgraduate you generally live out of college and can have as as much or little of the Oxfbridge experience, so a better balance.

York is lovely. The education he has from Oxford won’t be ‘lost’. Life is too short. If he really has researched it and is absolutely sure let him go for it. He’ll be paying his loan off for years - let that loan be worth it.

1.5 terms at Oxford = 12 weeks…

Life is always a calculation of whether our ultimate goals are worth going through a bit of shit to get there. I just think that the life long payoffs of an Oxford education are being easily dismissed by some posters on this thread.

Maybe for OP’s son it is not worth it. That’s fair enough.

BTW - I object to being called ‘non-woke’, I’m proudly woke. I wish everyone’s degrees offered the same opportunity but at the moment they don’t.

The suicide rate at Oxbridge is incredibly high. I’m amazed that any parent would pressure their child to stay there when they were so unhappy. Against his better judgement he’s given it a go and it’s not working for him. York is an excellent university and his degree from there will be highly respected. It’s his life @Distressedstudent, you had your time at Oxford, he’s having his and it’s making him miserable. Time to let him make his own decisions about his life.

Ah man i feel for you...

What college is he at?
Has he made good friends?

York is not necessarily going fix what ails him.

I refused to apply to oxbridge at all because my heart was set on york. My parents sort of stood by and let it happen.
I got in as my first choice and was geniunely utterly miserable there. I fought really hard to make it work but just couldnt.

I came from a highly academic school and found it the "5 star rated" lectures severely wanting (crappy ppt hand outs from bored lecturers) and york ggenerally was amassive culture shock. I wont go into the ins and outs but It was the first time i felt truely lonely. My unhappiness affected my mental health and -I really had to force myself to finish the degree just so i could move on with my life.
If he has 4 A* but wants to coast a bit he may struggle with the low quality teaching and finding "his tribe" at york - i def did.

that said - If he really wants york and you've talked it out I'd support him but i would really push for him to quit and work or travel (mini gap year) and restart in sept/oct NOT transfer mid-year. Friends are made in freshers week and are a big part of uni life.

I am a senior academic and went to Oxford myself. I agree with previous posters that he might regret switching unis so soon. It’s hard to tell from your post, but can you prove a bit further about what exactly he doesn’t like?

• The comment about lack :of contact hours is puzzling. He won’t get near as many in York as in Oxford doing a hums degree
• there is also not one way of being a student at Oxford. I would encourage him to join clubs etc to find his crowd. But you know this!

If he doesn’t probe what’s really going on, he risks just hitting the same problem in York.

there is a lot of well-being and academic advising support now at unis. He should take full advantage and work with his moral tutor and tutors too to get their counsel.

Who knows? He may have gone to York and had a grotty time there. My DC is at Oxford, also a fresher, also doing a humanities subject, also struggling. Their friends at other unis seem to do literally a couple of hours work a week and I don't think that sort of lifestyle would suit my DC any more than the highly pressurised Oxford life where there's never enough time for anything, everyone's constantly stressed and tired, and many people feel like they're not good enough.

My DC is adamant they don't want to go anywhere else but it's stressful to see them struggle.

Don't beat yourself up. People do switch unis. Sounds like your DS's mind is made up, and you are supporting him.

Just to correct some misinformation above - the suicide rate at Oxford and Cambridge is not “amazingly high”. It’s lower than most universities, and there is a lot more available support, from lots of contact with pastoral tutors and academics, to college nurses and counsellors, the university’s mental health services which offer group therapy, counselling and psychotherapy, and many colleges will also pay privately out of their welfare funds for individual therapy and support for students.

It’s important to stick to the facts. Suicide rates in students at universities are actually much lower than in the same age cohort who don’t go to university at all.

@tortoiseshellpeppershoes well said

Meant to add my DH went to oxford and half his uni friends are cool/normal the rest are honestly train wrecks (they finished uni and got their degrees etc but the whole experience messed them up ) so if he is saying its too much definitely listen.

I think you did the right thing encoraging him to apply he tried it and doesnt like it. You want to make sure the next step is the right one for him not just "a step"

You urged him to apply for Oxford and your ds wanted York? Why did you and dh and his teachers think it was a good idea? He already knew what he wanted and liked.

@LadyGaGasPokerFace I struggled to pick my GCSEs and my parents advised me to not do Home Economics as it might effect my applications for Uni. After that I ended up dropping 3 GCSEs as they didn't suit me. But they didn't advise me 'wrong' as such, they're not clairvoyant and were just acting on the knowledge they had. And young people can like and want all sorts of things that aren't the right thing for them.

@Distressedstudent At this age someone's personality/character hasn't been fully shown. No one knew how my life and I would turn out, not even me. So presumably you weren't to know quite how much he wouldn't like Oxford- nor did he. Also as PP's said, he might even still turn it around. It turned out I had a lot of undiagnosed MH issues. Could he possibly have some ADHD traits or something like that?

My cousin dropped out of Oxford. She was studying maths and physics. No issue with the work, she just didn’t have a good social scene there. She joined Leeds uni, who paid her to come actually! And she doesn’t regret her decision for a moment. She is now studying medicine in london after graduating with a first from Leeds.

its his life and his decision OP. Let him live it.

He needs to very carefully consider starting his first year again if he's intending on going where his mates already are. 1st and 2nd years, even if they went to the same secondary, don't tend to socialise much (or didn't when I was at uni). He might be just as unhappy if he's not especially gregarious.

I don't think you should feel so guilty - you advised him based on your positive experience, it's not as if you made him do something awful you knew he would hate.

It's still relatively early days, maybe he will change his mind, but you sound very supportive, and he will get advice from his tutor etc.

I changed my course, but not university, after my first year, which was totally the best thing for me, but I still benefited from that first year. He needs to stay engaged while he's still in Oxford - if only to have a pile of essays he can submit for course work if he moves to York.

Your son has such a fantastic opportunity and he is wasting it. All Universities should have intensive work loads..

I agree. Where is you get this information from @Blossomtoes ?

Well, his choice, but I agree with a previous poster - he will probably sulk in York too once he discovers that there is a lot of hard work involved in any degree course at a reputable university (I’m not familiar with York, but I bet a degree there is not a pushover either). His friends will be sharing all the “fun” stuff on social media, and there will be a “grass is greener on the other side” thing going on here.

I do think there is a bit of a loss of resilience in the post-COVID cohorts. A degree course is not supposed to be a summer camp; there is supposed to be a ton of work, research and reading involved.

But hey ho - he is an adult now. He must make his own decisions!

Cambridge University is conducting a review after five students committed suicide in three months last year. The Cambridge SU says there’s an epidemic of mental health issues among students there.

I made a similar mistake when choosing universities, went for the head over heart, although I had only myself to blame.

I lasted 8 weeks in a college campus environment which felt like a boarding school, with a load of private school kids who seamlessly transitioned from their actual boarding schools. Absolutely hated it, was stifling. Meanwhile, all my friends seemed to be having an amazing time out clubbing etc.

I left, spent the rest of that year doing work experience stuff abroad (which I also think helped me grow up a lot) and re-started the following year at Leeds.

Best decision I ever made, I've never regretted it. I've only once been asked in an interview why I didn't go for Oxbridge given my grades, and I said "I did, and I felt like an overgrown school child, dinner was served at 6pm and there was no nightlife", and the guy just laughed and said fair enough, and offered me the job.

Maybe it's the right decision to move, maybe it's just first year nerves that would settle with time. Who knows?

You don't have to pick a side, OP. You can support him by helping him think through the issue and work it out himself. E.g.;

• have you thought about X?
• have you spoken to Y?
• I read/heard Z, that might be something to think about...
• would you like some advice from my perspective?

Finishing up with 'you are a clever and capable man and I know you'll make the best decision for yourself. I'm here if you want to talk about it and will support you whatever you do'.

Don’t worry OP, you gave him the advice you thought best for him and that’s fine. It was not ‘duff’ advice. I’m sure many of us would have encouraged him to go to Oxford as well.

However, having been though the university system with my DC I can assure you that York is a wonderful, highly respected uni. Students we know who have gone there have been happy and had excellent tuition.

And remember , Oxbridge is not the be all and end all. Success in life comes down to many qualities, not just academics and uni name. Personality, determination, passion etc are all important too. Some of the most successful and fulfilled people I know did not go to Oxbridge.

Let your DS go to York with your blessing. Trust him - they have to find their own path.

He will love it in York, if he goes. I got into Oxford but chose York as I loved the perfect little city and the University wasn't too big. I'm so glad I did. Later on, I worked there for a while as well. York is a great place to be from the point of view of getting around the country by train. The people are lovely. York's a lovely place, the university is excellent and there is a great mix of students. He'll love it there. You don't even need a car - you can walk everywhere or bus or cycle safely.

I'm glad your son has been honest and not just dropped out and let you find out, like my poor friend did. My daughter was interviewed for Oxford, and wasn't successful - but her friends were. They worked solidly, were unable to come home very often due to the workload, and missed many social events during the year. My daughter said in hindsight, she'd had a better Uni and life experience than them.

If it's not for him, it's not for him. You can't make him happy there. He isn't you or your DH. Let him go to York if he can. Admit your mistake. Apologise. If York won't have him in Year 2, be prepared to pay full fees with no help at all so he can start all over again in September.

That’s an unusual anomaly; that’s why there’s a review. There are suicides every so often; but the usual rates are much lower than elsewhere. On MH issues: CUSU says that every year and always has. The actual proportion of very serious MH issues is not generally much more than it always was (low, and with a lot of support in place).

What HAS dramatically increased are general low level MH issues of “social anxiety” and depression and so on — probably unsurprisingly after Covid, but this is a rise across the whole cohort everywhere.

In my experience though as an academic and tutor, students seem to be saying they have a lot of MH issues, but these don’t always seem to be borne out in practice, apart from a lot more applications for exam adjustments and so on.

What I mean by that is that even the students who have diagnoses of anxiety are generally managing absolutely fine: but their self-image as suffering from anxiety or not doing well seems persistent even when they are, objectively, doing absolutely fine (even, very well indeed). There is a lot of talk about mental health issues everywhere right now in youth media and social media, so it’s unsurprisingly something that’s around in the air generally. Underneath the talk about mental health, though, they seem no different to previous cohorts of many years. There are additional MH and welfare support burdens on the colleges, but the vast majority of these are post-Covid low level things, not suicide.