DS wants to drop out of Oxford - and it's largely my fault

[Distressedstudent]

My DS is a fresher at Oxford and not enjoying it one bit - the intensive work load, the lack of contact hours, the general 'nerdiness' of it. He had wanted to go to York but, as he was predicted (and got) 4 x A star, we urged him to apply to Oxford (where we went - he had no intention of applying) and then, when he got his offer, to firm it. He very reluctantly agreed after talking to his teachers who said he'd be nuts to turn down Oxford, even though his heart was set on York.

He sees his friends from school having a blast at other universities whereas he has his nose to the grind at Oxford. He is now planning to see his Director of Studies and to see if York will take him from September (to read the same humanities course). He is not interested in my advice as DH and I 'got it wrong' and gave him 'duff advice' (his words).

I am not sure if I am up to replying to anyone kind enough to offer their thoughts because I feel so miserable/disappointed/guilty on his behalf.

@OxfordExperience when you say Oxbridge doesn't necessarily always take the brightest students but often the most hardworking and widely read, "exceptions maths, science," do you mean that for maths and science the most important thing is top set, top grades, brightest students?

Thanks!

Passing the tests and interviews as well one would think. Everyone is top or near top who applies for sciences or they would not do well in the required A levels or the pre tests. They still need to be filtered re suitability for Oxbridge.

@TizerorFizz thank you. DS is top set and will be applying for maths/science. I always thought grades were paramount for science but then felt slightly unsure because of the quoted post.

OP a few kids drop out of all universities every year. For a range of reasons. I can see why it’s stressful but you sound really supportive.

As a general point, I find the fetishisation of Oxbridge incredibly unhealthy. One of my kids got an offer and another didn’t. I hated the focus on it from them, their friends and their school. There are many years to live a life and so many routes to pursue. It’s crazy that so much attention is focussed on two universities when there is so much more to living a good and fulfilled life. Wrong thread for this comment I guess.

@InterestingPhenomenon I actually agree with you. STEM grads, for example, from any elite or top rated university won’t be disadvantaged. The applicant will need to be selected for a job but they must decide which type of job makes them happy! Then do what’s needed to get it and that isn’t always an Oxbridge degree. A friend’s DS took a year to get a job with a maths degree from Cambridge. Capable but not great at “soft” skills. Found his niche and now very happy. The degree opens a door but you have to walk through it.

A colleague’s child graduated from Cambridge with a 2:2 and had some difficulty finding a first job out of uni. His dad thought that he would have been better off with a 2:1, or a first, from another uni.

Employers don’t see all Oxbridge grads as equal to one another, or as better than all other grads. There is clearly comparison and differentiation among Oxbridge grads and between Oxbridge grads and other grads.

Oxbridge admissions tutors generally have the first pick of students, and they try to choose the very best. But it doesn’t follow that every Oxbridge student is better than every non-Oxbridge student. There are Oxbridge graduates being turned down for internships and grad schemes in favour of other students every year.

Oxford and Cambridge are amazing, but being offered a place there is not akin to being anointed. The students at Oxbridge are clever and hardworking, but competition is fierce, and there are thousands upon thousands of students at other unis, some of whom are performing at extremely high levels who will go on to elite careers. So, either it is all social engineering unfairly handicapping Oxbridge grads, or the tutors are only human and their picks aren’t perfect.

@InterestingPhenomenon a great post and one that I'm going to bear in mind when applying for university this autumn.

Although we prefer Imperial over Oxbridge and from what I've read on here about the "Oxbridge way of life" it definitely would not suit DS so he probably won't even apply.

@Amboseli there’s an Imperial way of life too and I think that wouldn’t suit all or even most students either. Also, if your DS hasn’t narrowed down his field yet it may be that the best course isn’t either Imperial or Oxbridge. There are some weird snobby comments about Nottingham further up the thread but actually there are a couple of departments at Nottingham with top rated courses where the industry links would virtually guarantee good students excellent opportunities.

Thanks. I have worked in mental health for 30 years. I wish I had kept a record but I am staggered anecdotally at how many patient I have seen with anxiety and depression in their 30s and 40s who went to Oxbridge. Maybe it’s the kind of people who apply there, or the experience of going, or the jobs they enter after graduation. But this really informed how I parented; I have always played down the Oxbridge hype.

My dream for my kids is that they find lovely friends and a decent respectful life partner (this most of all) and that they have a good-enough job which makes them financially independent of us and their future partners. I really do not give the specific institution they attend huge amounts of importance. But they definitely picked up on the pressure for Oxbridge success from school and peers. Let’s see what happens.

It’s the type of people, not the universities - but then anxious, obsessional perfectionists do tend to have the work ethic and focus required, so will be encouraged to apply. If you simply love your subject and don’t really care much about how you are doing compared to others, so long as you are interested in what you are learning and are enjoying the opportunity to have such close attention from experts in their field, and are enjoying the phenomenal range of extra-curricular activities, you’ll come out the other end just fine (but then might not be the type of personality that is bothered with a high flying career, either - it’s not compulsory to go into a “high flying career” just because you went to Oxford or Cambridge).

@Amboseli
I too think Imperial won’t suit everyone. Widen the search when exact subject is chosen. For example, Engineering disciplines are great at Sheffield. Completely different to Imperial. DS might like Bristol or Southampton. Most grads who do well will be employed in stem subjects.

A 2/2 is an issue because most grad schemes ask for 2/1 or first. Even from Cambridge a 2/2 holder might find getting a job more challenging and a 2/1 from elsewhere would have opened the doors more readily.

I totally agree with Tizerorfizz: a student with a STEM degree from any top rated university won't be disadvantaged and a first or 2:1 from Sheffield, Manchester etc is far better than a 2:2 STEM degree from Oxbridge.

I think Oxbridge is good for networking for students studying law, PPE etc but when it comes to STEM, there's more meritocracy. It's about what you know, rather than who you know.

This thread highlights that it's not just about getting a place at university, it's about the degree you get and how you use it. It's therefore very important that kids choose a university where they'll thrive.

Yes, Imperial isn't for everyone. Their entry requirements sometimes exceed Oxbridge...

@InterestingPhenomenon another great post and I fully agree.

@TizerorFizz and @littelmadnyness DS wants to do comp sci and I think Imperial would suit him.

The course is really interesting, practical as well as theoretical and industry focused, the MEng has an industrial placement. The only downside is it's in London/not a campus. And as you say harder to get into than Oxbridge especially because of the STEP requirement.

It's an aspirational choice and we're looking at other unis. Lots of very good ones, it's trying to narrow down the safe choices that we're finding difficult.

Amboseli: that's great your DC has found a course he really wants to do. Good luck to him. Looking with interest as my DC wants to do Computer science but is rather daunted by how competitive it is at so many universities.

Imperial’s only downside is really not that it’s not a campus university. Get your DS to have a read on the student room and really think about what he wants in a place to live for three years, because that’s such a big part of having a happy time. I’m assuming you’re wealthy and the high costs won’t be a downside as you haven’t mentioned it.

@Amboseli
The issue that has to be considered with Imperial is where to live in y2-4. Nowhere near the university if you have a more constrained budget. DS would also need to find people like him with a similar budget and be prepared to commute. If you have lots of money and a London flat, less of an issue!

That is not to say it’s not the best place to be a student but it’s as far from a campus experience as it’s possible to be. So you have to want that experience and not purely the course. As you might imagine it’s very cosmopolitan so that can be a bonus. There are five choices on UCAS so look at other cities with a defined student area. Many Bristol students live very close to the uni in y2-4 but it’s not a campus uni. Campus is for one year’s accommodation only of course.

@littelmadnyness yes it is so competitive and very daunting. DS already is feeling it's virtually impossible to get into Imperial and I can't really say anything to reassure him as he's right. But he's prepared to give it a go knowing the odds are against him. Which is great in itself.

@ClimbingRoseBush yes we and of course DS needs to think carefully about whether he will enjoy living in London and what the social side will be like. He's used to London though as his school is in zone 3 and we're in zone 5.

We are worried about the cost, we are not wealthy, but that's not going to be a deal-breaker if he gets a place and wants to go there. We'll find the money somehow.

@TizerorFizz yes all good points. The course and an all STEM uni is perfect. But the location is not.

Warwick seems good too and Manchester. We need to go and visit though.

@Amboseli
Warwick is great. So is anywhere with a strong Stem heritage. All grads will be employable.

I personally don’t see all Stem as being that important. Mixing with all sorts adds to the experience for many. Less one dimensional. Maybe look at good links with industry too.

If he wants to meet women, an all STEM university is less than ideal. Imperial’s male female ratio is not great.

@ClimbingRoseBush
Intercollegiate halls might be available! Are university pairings a thing now?

@ClimbingRoseBush yes that's a consideration but definitely not a deal-breaker.

You should let him go wherever he wants at his age.

True - another aspect of university - probably never in your life again will you meet so many different people and potential future spouses/partners. However if you ave on an almost all boys course there are loads of clubs you can join which are full of women. I suppose if you went to an all male theological college to study for the priesthood that might not apply but just about everywhere else it will be fine.

I hope "distressed student" is doing better now year 1 is nearly over and can continue into year 2 at university as there are only 2 years to go now.

DP went to Oxbridge and hated it. Is always envious when my clubbing/gigging/mischief at a redbrick comes up.

Always worked with lots of Oxbridge types since. Always very smart and capable, but often quite conformist and lacking a feel for ordinary people which is important in the profession I’m in.