DS wants to drop out of Oxford - and it's largely my fault

[Distressedstudent]

My DS is a fresher at Oxford and not enjoying it one bit - the intensive work load, the lack of contact hours, the general 'nerdiness' of it. He had wanted to go to York but, as he was predicted (and got) 4 x A star, we urged him to apply to Oxford (where we went - he had no intention of applying) and then, when he got his offer, to firm it. He very reluctantly agreed after talking to his teachers who said he'd be nuts to turn down Oxford, even though his heart was set on York.

He sees his friends from school having a blast at other universities whereas he has his nose to the grind at Oxford. He is now planning to see his Director of Studies and to see if York will take him from September (to read the same humanities course). He is not interested in my advice as DH and I 'got it wrong' and gave him 'duff advice' (his words).

I am not sure if I am up to replying to anyone kind enough to offer their thoughts because I feel so miserable/disappointed/guilty on his behalf.

Exactly what are the outdated traditions which put kids off SummertimeSwallows? Only asking because I can't easily identify any outdated traditions which have crossed my DCs' path - and all of them went to old, central colleges. So it would be good to know where the dangers are lurking.

Why does it cost so much more to educate a student at Oxbridge than at any other UK uni? Where is the excess going?

Since when does outdated equate to dangerous? How about "Sub fusc (from the Latin sub fuscus meaning dark brown) should be worn beneath your academic gown and is also required when sitting examinations but doesn't have to be worn for collections. " Believe it or not many DC are put off by all that pomp and ceremony. I'm sure all academic institutions had similar terminology in their dim and distant pasts but they tended to move with the times.

It doesn’t cost students and parents any more than anywhere else: the fees are the same, and in fact accommodation and living costs can be much less because of shorter terms, subsidised rent, and lots of funds available from the colleges for everything from book grants to bursaries.

In terms of “full economic costing”, however, no fees pay for the real cost of the course in any university - it always costs the university more than the fees to provide the courses, etc. Obviously, that also means the cost of libraries, buildings, salaries, all sorts of things which get cross-subsidised by universities’ endowments, conferencing businesses, catering, grant income, income from property and investments, etc. In Oxbridge those costs are even higher - estimated as over 21k per student in provision, against fees of less than half that. A lot of that is the teaching: from more lectures to the tutorial system to more staff. And a lot of it is also the cost of really amazing library and lab provision, all sorts of teaching and skills provision for students, salaries, administration, electronic resources provision, student theatres, subsidised bars and catering, the careers service, university counselling, and so on and so on.

Oxbridge tends to have more money available to cross-subsidise this because both the universities and the colleges tend to have bigger endowments and investment portfolios, as well as more grant income, largely in the sciences; more ability to fundraise from alumni, and other multiple income streams to use in subsidising student provision.

It also relies on a heck of a lot of goodwill and unpaid work from everyone who works there, from admin staff to academics to PhD students. Quite a lot of the so-called “perks” (things like subsidised lunch in college and so on) are by way of payment for a large amount of unpaid goodwill work that keeps it all going.

(On another note, my students certainly don’t wear chinos 😂 They are normally in baggy jeans, trainers and a jumper like any student these days 😂 Formals - well, they go to those because it’s an opportunity to get a nice meal and booze pretty cheaply, albeit in a Tudor hall or two. Some of them do music and theatre productions in the chapel, but then they do that in lots of places. And it’s mostly the tourists who go punting, but most students do it at least once after exams to get pissed on the river with some cheap fizz and a picnic. Why not?)

The question was obviously rhetorical but thank you for your answer tortoiseetc.

Hi OP, former Cambridge lecturer here who left the job over amorphous work schedule, rampant, unjustified elitism and other things more.

It's a tricky one - the networking opportunities at OX/CB are peerless. But then you need to have the temperament/elbows/sense of entitlement to actually network.

If it's really only the workload, that may well get easier as he gets used to the way of working. But if it's also the tone, the public school accents, the coats of arms everwhere, the porters going 'Sir' all the time, the smug....

Then he may well be better off giving up the cachet of an Oxford degree and go somewhere he finds welcoming. Not worth it spending three years squirming at your environs.

Summertimeswallows wearing a flimsy black top layer equates to pomp and ceremony? Give me a break.

Subfusc (which only exists at Oxford) is an exam tradition the students actually seem to enjoy - with the exam dress and gown, the “tradition” is to wear different coloured carnations as buttonholes each day, as you get closer to finishing your finals exams, and then on the final day your friends wait for you outside the exam hall with bottles of cheap cava, and throw flour over you to celebrate. It’s no different really to any school leaving party where the kids sign each others’ school uniform and get pissed or whatever. Definitely isn’t some kind of intimidating social thing!

And gosh I wish the porters called anyone “Sir” these days 😂🤣

medium.com/oxford-university/flowers-and-ink-8e03d2947545

@goodbyestranger - the sub fusc for hall, and for exams (I had to sit my finals in blistering heat, wearing the sodding robe, skirt and tights. Also, those robes and hats are not the cheapest), the porters calling students "sir" or "miss" when they are twice your age, the weird lingo like "bop" instead of social or college party, or "battels" or "bulldog" for security - I always felt a bit cringe saying some of that Not being allowed to sleep more than six miles from Carfax Tower during term time (and I got into trouble over that with my tutor because my boyfriend lived in Reading). Lots of complex admin rules that make no sense but have just "always been done that way" - having worked in academic admin it's quite mad at times. The rules about who can and can't walk on the grass. Carnation colour codes for exams are pretty and kind of sweet but a bit daft. Just off the top of my head.

I think there are many things about Oxford you can defend but I really don't think you can claim the place isn't choc full of outdated traditions.

For what it’s worth my dc turned down Oxford as he didn’t like all the college system, and nice he’d gone to visit york decided he really didn’t want to be mixing with “ sort of people that have gone there “ - he was referring to David Cameron at time and his cronies

he had a fab time at york. Did well. Is 30 now and on 6 figure package in his job

yes, it’ll open doors if you want to go through those sort of doors . And if you intend a very deep academic career.

support him. Many kids would just dropout entirely

You had to wear subfusc in hall?? Blimey. Gowns, for sure, but surely not the whole thing!

But then you need to have the temperament/elbows/sense of entitlement to actually network.

To be fair that isn't just the domain of Oxbridge. It's the way of the world and always has been. Although there are probably more opportunities there.

Nah, you're right. It wasn't full sub fusc. It was gown for formal dinner. I was blending them together out of laziness.

I definitely did get a bit of a warning for not wearing tights to finals, despite it being in the middle of a heat wave, because sub fusc says no bare legs tho.

The thing is, most of those “traditions” and lingo are much beloved by students and carried on mostly by them 😂 Porters are definitely not calling anyone Sir these days, unless ironically. Half the time most of the “traditions” only date back to recent years anyway, and were invented mostly quite recently. They didn’t do trashing or even really the carnations when I was an undergrad; and most of my own students use some newly invented Oxbridge lingo that didn’t exist when I was a student either (and some of the stuff we did say has completely fallen out of use - you’ll get blank looks these days if you say someone is a spod, or talk about a squash, or pennying, for example). Some colleges even have their own special lingo that other colleges don’t share, too.

So it’s all a lot less formal, and more evolving and quirky than people seem to think. It’s mostly kept up as ironic fun, too, not as some kind of special elite signifier 😂 It’s just kids enjoying themselves for the most part.

Support his choices. It’s sad he felt pressurised into Oxford

@tortoiseshellpeppershoes - which is fine, but I don't think it's for everyone, which is I think where this thread started. I'm not saying Oxford is evil - I had three years there and obvs survived - but it's definitely a very particular thing and I can see why it makes some people miserable. I honestly felt like a fish trying to ride a bicycle most of the time there.

Great that loads of students love it. Some (and I know I'm not the only one!) don't and didn't and that is fine too. There are other excellent places to study and I wish bright kids weren't all pushed to Oxbridge, whether it's a good personality fit or not.

That's daft. I teach at an Oxbridge college. Most of my freshers do fuck all work until the summer term, when they go nuts. Given that there is no assessment and relatively infrequent teaching /compulsory contact, it would be impossible to keep their noses to the grindstone if I wanted to.

It's not at all unreasonable not to like Oxford. But this won't be the real issue, because I can guarantee that there are other students around him who stagger from pub to club to union to stage with only an occasional short-lived essay crisis to divert them.

Oh FGS it's the symbolism of it that's pomp and ceremony not how heavy the material is. Give me a break. I think you may have been too close to it all (by proxy) for too long.

On the subfusc and outdated traditions - you can ignore an awful lot.

There is no data sharing between Wetherspoons and the University if you decide to get a part-time job.

I think it's similar for the living within 6 miles rule. So long as you have an address, and are keeping up with your work, nobody will check.

Nobody will care, or bar you from entry, if you don't wear a carnation for your exams.

My observation of RGs is that there has been a lot of subtle introduction of traditions/ceremonies in the quest to make the university experience seem magical and transformative.

The thread seems to have taken off and turned into something more general than the original poster's issues. FWIW, the students I teach are doing some work that their peers at Oxbridge won't be covering until Masters level. But (a) it's training for the kind of techy and analytic careers that aren't as well represented in Oxbridge degree programmes - which employers know, so seek them out - so there really is a 'sorting' going on rather than one type of education being intrinsically better than the other. And (b) I wouldn't be in my current role if it weren't for my excellent teaching as an undergrad, even though I didn't get that analytic training at that stage.

This is a bit specific to my discipline though. I have no idea how it works for English Literature!

I think most people in your shoes would have pushed for Oxford given the doors it opens and it’s a real shame it hasn’t worked out for him. Is he going to finish the academic year out?
if he’s already done a year of his course I would be concerned about the lack of challenge in starting again by restarting freshers. Coasting and going on the piss is a difficult habit to break.

Sheffield has an excellent record with employers by the way particularly the very big consultancies and accounting firms. Well taught students who can add value in a work environment very quickly. I find the British attitude to doing business studies a little bizarre, these are considered highly challenging courses in the rest of the world.

? Weird post. I should imagine most posts about a specific university would end up being lots of posters talking about when they were at said university 🤣.

And people can’t win. If you talk about using Oxbridge as a springboard to the City, you’ll be dismissed as greedy and materialistic. But using your Oxbridge education to give back by teaching others is a failure apparently.