DS wants to drop out of Oxford - and it's largely my fault

[Distressedstudent]

My DS is a fresher at Oxford and not enjoying it one bit - the intensive work load, the lack of contact hours, the general 'nerdiness' of it. He had wanted to go to York but, as he was predicted (and got) 4 x A star, we urged him to apply to Oxford (where we went - he had no intention of applying) and then, when he got his offer, to firm it. He very reluctantly agreed after talking to his teachers who said he'd be nuts to turn down Oxford, even though his heart was set on York.

He sees his friends from school having a blast at other universities whereas he has his nose to the grind at Oxford. He is now planning to see his Director of Studies and to see if York will take him from September (to read the same humanities course). He is not interested in my advice as DH and I 'got it wrong' and gave him 'duff advice' (his words).

I am not sure if I am up to replying to anyone kind enough to offer their thoughts because I feel so miserable/disappointed/guilty on his behalf.

What college is he at @Distressedstudent ?

I see this a lot with work colleagues. They thrived at Oxbridge and define themselves by it to an extent so they assume that if their DC are of similar calibre then it is obvious that they will too. It is often not the case. It is a very specific learning environment which, although great for some, just doesn't suit everyone. DH and I loved it and could have fallen into the same trap with our DC. All A stars at A Level and schools were (strongly) nudging them towards Oxbridge. If not them then who? was what we heard a lot (too much). There is a real blind spot with a lot of people. It's often a case of 'if they are lucky enough to get a place'. What if they really don't want a place? It's not a bad reflection on the very academic DC who prefers to study elsewhere. Our DC didn't want to go to Oxbridge, didn't like all the pomp and traditions and didn't believe it was the best place for the courses they wanted and we could see why they reached that conclusion. They have chosen great courses at other excellent universities. They haven't diminished their achievements or prospects in any way. Your relationship with your DS is worth so much more than his university destination OP. It's not too late for your DS to get things back on course but you really need to hide your disappointment and move on with him. Celebrate the fact that he knows his own mind and get right behind him.

No, he would have understood that an Oxford degree would give him a massive advantage in life.

This is an interesting thread. How posters respond to the OP seems to depend upon whether they believe Oxford is a very good university or a golden ticket for life.

Oxford clearly has unparalleled brand recognition globally, and that’s handy. But I’m not sure an equally bright, ambitious young person coming from a reasonably good UK university is more than marginally disadvantaged.

But he didn’t. He thinks he was given “duff advice”. He wanted to go to York this time last year and he wants to go to York now. At no point has he understood anything of the sort.

@Deviniaursula @2reefsin30knots @VeryQuaintIrene

While difficult to compare life 30 years ago when I was at Oxford and now when my DC1 is I'd say, comparing our two experiences, we haven't noticed any significant difference . We both had / have one essay per week.

I had labs / field trips and more scheduled time than DC who seems to have ~6 lectures plus one or two classes and a tutorial with an essay each week.

Like me DC1 seems have a manageable work load combined with a weekly essay crisis. DC managed to row 12x per week in Trinity term and socialise ending up with a good 2.1 in Prelims. Now in 2nd year DC is working in a more structured way and also enjoying their work more with choice over modules.

DC1 does though say some subjects have heavier work loads and many people are more perfectionist that DC1 and me so will respond differently. DC2 who starts at Oxford in October will I expect have a more pressured timetable due to doing joint honours and done being a subject they are starting from scratch. They are using their year out in part to get up to speed. They set themselves v high standards so my well react differently.

I do think the intense teaching style and approach to assessment at Oxford works well for some and really doesn't suit others. Many others fall somewhere in the middle and muddle through. In particular the high risk, high pressure fact that your whole degree class in effect rests on 10 days on exams in your final term is something that I would completely understand if students would prefer avoiding and give Oxford a wide berth.

Finally there are many great Unis across the UK and all our DC do well to look at the choice as a package of the course, the location and the vibe. If for whatever reason Oxford isn't working once they've given it a good shot as with OP's DC then its seems a totally sensible decision to explore other uni options.

I tell my teens all the time that there is more than one way to live a life.

Changing your mind can be a brave decision.

I would encourage him to complete the year if he can but support a move to York too.

@Juja one essay crisis a week is exactly what I remember 😂

Oxford clearly has unparalleled brand recognition globally, and that’s handy. But I’m not sure an equally bright, ambitious young person coming from a reasonably good UK university is more than marginally disadvantaged.

^^This

Having worked as a university lecturer and as a recruiter in a large corporate I have found this to be largely true (at least in my field).

It does depend very much on the course though.

For academics the prestige seems to be mainly about postgraduate Oxbridge experience.

The whole academic snobbery thing is easy to fall for. I did it - I applied for Oxford twice and got rejected twice. So I went to Bristol which accepted me after I got 2 As and a B - without interview. It was a Top 5 uni so what's the problem? But I found it just awful and couldn't figure out why - I did gradually. Of course, that it gave me an unconditional offer was like a lad unlucky in love getting to meet a Sure Thing (I'm a bloke btw) when of course what it really meant was, they weren't interested in me nor anyone else applying!

I'd got an offer to study History at York after an interview there but turned it down for Bristol, going for an upgrade after my great results. It's one of those sliding doors moments, sadly.

Two of my best friends did get into Oxford, both working class, for one it was sort of the making of him - he went to St Anne's - the other just hated it, he was more obviously working class, gauche, brown sauce on his chips type.

In my final year at Bristol I met a lad who just couldn't get on with it - he'd visited Birmingham where a relative I think had gone and he liked that and had the chance to switch. I did make the case against Bristol while stressing it was his decision in the end. Glad I did, he did switch and I heard back he loved it there. I myself had the chance to switch to a London Uni after my first year at Bristol and sadly bottled it, I stayed in what then had become my comfort zone. I think your lad knows what he wants to do now and in a way he can say - for this is rare - that he got to experience two universities rather than one!

I think there is something toxic about Oxford - some reports of bullying, students under pressure, wasn't there a dean who got trashed there, it went to legal action with constructive dismissal and so on. It's not true all unis are the same when it comes to work - Bristol had just seven hours of lectures a week in the first year with nothing at all on Mondays - this was - ahem! - 1989/90 but stuff doesn't change much at unis, it doesn't have to. Bored out of my skull with the course, no stimulation or sense of academic competition at all.

@2reefsin30knots exactly - great training for work deadlines ... but courses for horses ... not for everyone...

That said lots of people aren't happy and drop out of other Unis so I'm not sure I'd extrapolate from the few cases where clearly it doesn't work to Oxford as a whole.

I would though going back 30 years say Oxford still has more to do to make it a more welcoming and inclusive setting, especially for those from less well represented regions, accents, socio-economic and minority groups.

What a strange thread this has turned out to be. I'm particularly surprised by the number of people who have met or have worked with Oxbridge graduates as I've barely met any in my 50 odd years

Fwiw, my dc1 is a 3rd year Humanities student. I don 't know where this 'nerdiness' comes from as they are just as likely to be found in the student bar, Freud's, etc as well as the very occasional visit to a chapel or choir. And what is wrong with that anyway?? As for chinos 😂

valbyruta. I konw loads (both my siblings for starters and I am a lawyer in London so tons of lawyers I know and clients went to Oxbridge). On the other hand some people living different lives might well never know anyone who went there.

My DD would have loved Oxford but just ended up in the wrong college. She battled through thinking it would get better but it didn’t. In the end she realised that actually for her Oxford didn’t really give her any real advantages anyway. Especially when she saw her friends who went to other universities having a much easier life, getting firsts and then being accepted into Oxbridge for post grad study or being offered jobs in the same firms she applied to. She now has a great job and is very happy but in hindsight i think she should have been brave and cut her losses, not stick to the Oxbridge is everything mythology she (and we as parents to some extent) had.

Students drop out of university courses all the time. Oxford students are no different, some will love it and some will hate it, for a myriad of reasons. He’s an adult and can make his own decisions. I do wonder whether a different Oxford college might suit him better, they are very diverse in lots of ways.

I'm not a lawyer and don't work in London. I have no idea where those of my colleagues who have a degree went to university.

Let him transfer to York if he can.

I was Oxford material and got an offer. The course wasn't the course I most wanted to do, and I remember having doubts after accepting the place. But you don't turn down Oxford!

I really didn't enjoy it. I was mediocre, didn't love the subject enough, and didn't make many friends. I also knew several people who really struggled with depression there. Obviously there are many good things about it but I enjoyed my masters way WAY more at a red brick uni.

Tbh I don't think Oxford opened any doors for me. It was the masters that got me my job.

Oxbridge can be amazing but I think you have to really love your subject and find your people. Definitely not for everyone. If I redid my life I'd still apply, but for a different subject and college.

My 2 eldest daughters went to Cambridge and coming from a working class family on benefits we were very proud but it was entirely their decision as there was definitely no tradition in our family. Dd1 studied medicine and found it a slog compared to friends at other universities and went to a London University for her clinical years after graduating from Cambridge. Dd2 loved it at Cambridge (I think dd1 only applied to prove a point) abd never imagined going anywhere else. What I've learned from their friends who went to different universities is it's not such a big deal which university you graduate from so enjoy the experience.

Would he find a different college better? There's a huge difference between eg Merton and St Hughes.

Dd1 studied medicine at Cambridge and one of her lab partners dropped out after a year despite being a shining star at his secondary school. He became an alcoholic and died in his late 20s . Oxbridge is not for everyone.

Whydoitry you can't just switch colleges willynilly!

OP I'm finding quite a bit of what you're saying confusing. What subject is he reading - apologies if you've said and I've missed it.

the twee nerdiness (so much focus on library, chapel, formals, punting)

I can't be the only person wondering if this is bullshit, surely? Apologies again if I'm wrong OP but.... really? Also your terminology is all wrong for Oxford but I get that your DS may be at Cambridge and you're trying to fudge the location.

This is a tricky one, and I haven't read the full thread so sorry if I'm missing anything or giving redundant advice! He's obviously old enough to make his own decisions and know his own mind, but he's so early on in his degree. I graduated from Cambridge relatively recently, and my god did I find the first year hard. I felt like I was drowning under the workload, I struggled with friendships and I disparaged the 'nerdy' atmosphere. I was bitterly jealous of other friends at non-Oxbridge (but still Russell Group) unis who 1) had significantly more free time and 2) had been at uni at probably a couple of months longer than me due to Cambridge's short terms and late start date, so they were much more settled by the Xmas break.

A few years after graduation, I am by far the one who got the most out of uni compared to my school friends who didn't go to Oxbridge. I found plenty of 'normal' people who were cool, liked going out, had similar interests. Over the next 3 years I worked out how to handle the workload, so by final year I felt like I was getting so much out of the course. It was an incredibly rewarding experience and I am so so grateful that I stuck it out.

I would seriously recommend sticking it out until at least the end of first year. Starting uni is a huge shock and he could have been finding it difficult anywhere he might have gone. Definitely he should talk to his DoS, his tutor etc regarding his worries so he can get any extra support he needs-- I had regular check-ins and my college paid for extra 1-1 lessons with one of the PhD students.

All this said, I was the one who was sincerely motivated to go to Cambridge throughout my teens, so I did have the desire and determination to make it work. Overall, Cambridge gave me an education I couldn't get anywhere else, confidence and really unique experiences that I'll treasure forever.

Good luck to him, and I hope he finds it easier soon.

There is a recurring theme here that Oxbridge offers a level of education that can't be achieved anywhere else. Of course Oxbridge is idiosyncratic but it is not necessarily a better education than you could get in other high ranking universities. Neither does it follow that because you have an Oxbridge degree you will go on to shine in your career. It is quite sad that many see their Oxbridge years as the pinnacle of their achievements when their future careers are not as glistening as anticipated. My view is that Oxbridge can be wonderful for one DC and disastrous for another DC who is just as intelligent and motivated. I think it is a much healthier attitude to just consider it different. It is not the holy grail for everyone. And the outdated traditions are definitely off-putting for many DC.