Oxbridge 2023 support; it's offer month. Good luck all.

[Riverpebble]

New thread for the start of the Oxbridge offers.

I am so sorry to hear this @Rejects . My DD was one of the succesful ones but there will have been an element of roll of the dice. We went through the process a few years ago with my DS who not only was rejected (and had what sounded like a bit of a car crash interview), but who suffered hugely with loss of self-esteem/confidence following the process despite ending up in a "good" university and now being in a graduate job. It taught me a valuable lesson - as you are experiencing now I think - about the difference between people who are proud/pleased by their DC success, and those for whom it presents an opportunity to gloat/boast. I'd love to say he's over it but I know it still rankles and I made sure not to make a big deal of it yesterday. Hugs. It will get better.

I actually got the Cambridge offer and missed it back in 2015. My wife didn't go to Oxbridge and is in a much better position job-wise than I am (Oxford graduate here). Beyond A-Levels, work experience and internships are much more important in getting a good job than the university you go to. I've never had a full-time job since graduating so I'd encourage them to focus on extra-curriculars and enjoying what will be a much more normal university experience. Best of luck to them

Me too. 5 of the 6 who applied to Oxford at school got offers. Two of which are best friends, have a feeling it could be a no for Cambridge for us, I've really tried to manage expectations but I'm dreading the 25th now.

Thank you for the suggestion and if anyone does have a witty response I'd love to hear it, I don't think it exists without making me sound ungracious. The logic of in-the real-world-other-things-are-more-important, which @Tintin2006 kindly points out is one I fully understand as a Cambridge graduate married to a non-Oxbridge person whose uni friends are universally uber-successful and lovely - far more successful than most of my Cambridge friends. But it won't work on this couple - and it would be rude to make that argument - and it won't make my poor geeky ds feel better, he believed it yesterday but then he saw everyone else sail in.

And @dishpatchnow* I appreciate your kind words and honesty about your ds. My dh, who is an Oxford reject too, says it still hurts at nearly 50 even though he's gone on to a phenomenally successful career and earns far more money than me. I'd advise others to gently encourage their dc not to put themselves through this in year 13 but wait until after A levels and go for it only if they have stellar results, and even then to be very wary of how it might turn out. I am genuinely pleased for everyone on here who had good news and wish them the very best

Sorry to hear that, your poor DS. You know it’s a throw of the dice between all these high flying kids. Interviews can click or not, a mere snapshot. Oxford freely admit to missing out on some of the best candidates. The problem is all the bloody process. However much the parent and school try to play it down and manage expectations the reality is quite a bit of effort is needed, at the least familiarisation of the test and interview style. Some schools coach the pupils for a year. Then everyone is glamoured on the open day walking round imagining they’re in Brideshead Revisited. So a bit of blooming disappointment is expected. And it’s annoying when someone or many more known to be less bright manage to sneak in! Big hugs to your DS. Remind him they admitted the likes of Boris Johnson, David Cameron, George Osbourne and what a bunch of thick prats they are. Also the short terms I would imagine don’t facilitate the most rounded university experience. All a bit intense.

So we are in the awkward position that DS got a conditional offer and his friend got turned down pre interview.

What can we say without it sounding patronising or glibe? We love their lad, known him since primary school, taken them together to all sorts of things over the years.

We know other universities do some courses better but Oxbridge does cast a celebrity shadow. You can't deny the magic or piss on the successful applicants or the institution you were happy to apply for until the point of rejection.

I hope we will muddle through and be able to celebrate this cohort of excellent kids moving onto the next stage.

My heart goes out to the Cambridge applicants with another fortnight to go.

As a state school with only three Oxbridge applicants we think the system has been great. Very clear on the odds, letting the kids know decisions swiftly before the UCAS system really starts demanding answers. Leaving lots of time for plan B & plan C to get excited about.

I suspect the school have called it correctly with applications. Not pushing the numbers. We feel for another kid at a different sixth form raised by Oxbridge graduates rejected pre interview, the burden on that child over the secondary years was cruel. She will be much happier in a standard lecture set up rather than a close tutorial.
I'm a professional expert in secondary school kids, Universities get that whole raw 18 year old growing into twenty something's , they know what they are looking for.

Equally, if all people can talk about a dinner party is where their kids are going to uni, that says more about them @Rejects! There's more to life, which some people realise way too late!

of 5 candidates applying for his subject from his school he was the only one to be rejected.

Five candidates for that subject alone, all from one school? Presumably the school sends many, many Oxbridge applicants then? In that context, it’s harder to shine within your own cohort.

DS’s friend didn’t pass the interview stage either and she was “expected” to be one of those who would have been offered a place. She too is disappointed and found Tuesday incredibly hard. DS said she’d turned it around overnight and was much brighter yesterday and looking forward to exploring her other Chemistry offers. It really does seem to be a roll of the dice once they get to interview.
Interesting report from Oxford on the Physics admissions for this year (so soon!)

www.physics.ox.ac.uk/system/files/file_attachments/AdmissionsReportDec2022.pdf

I just wanted to say hang on in there to those who received disappointing news. I really was sorry to read about your son yesterday, Rejects. I can totally relate as son was also rejected some years ago. At the time, he was very deflated and said that was it and he wouldn't have entertained the idea of reapplying. But as the months went on, he changed his mind. Particularly as, by the time he got to August and A-level results, January didn't seem far off! He was successful second time round and, in my view, there is definitely something to be said for applying with grades in hand. Also, they know the routine and are not in the midst of coursework / mocks while it's all going on.

But... (in my very humble view) I think it's only worth reapplying if they do achieve the max possible grades. I think something like 50% there achieve at least three A stars (the percentage is higher in STEM), so they need to at least have that to immediately present themselves as in the top half of the actual cohort.

Also, if they can do something in the gap year to boost their application, this can really help. Easier with some subjects than others though. Definitely have a plan for Sept - maybe voluntary work abroad or something? But it's vital to have something to avoid them sitting at home seeing everyone else's fresher's weeks social media! As long as they have a structured, exciting and relevant plan for a gap year, it can be absolutely invaluable. Even if DS hadn't got in second time round, he would not have regretted his gap year. He worked overseas in challenging circumstances and, I know it's a cliche, but he was a different person with different perspectives when he came back.

Another thing is to use the extra time to build up some extra super- curriculars such as individual research, entering essay competitions, projects behind the curriculum, etc - because they will expect more from a post A-level applicant (not just the same PS). If they are the kind of student who has that type of stuff anyway, it can be worth reapplying. Perhaps they win the subject prize at school in Year 13, or some other academic achievement happens in Year 13 that just gives their application an extra boost.

Many Oxbridge reapplicants also broaden the scope of the uni search second time round - eg. perhaps applying for some US options? Or universities with dual programmes here and abroad? Sometimes they just need the extra year to decompress and realise that Oxbridge is not the be-all-and-end-all and actually realise (away from all the school peer pressure) that other unis may well be better! It's less stressful for them when they don't even have to let anyone else know where they are applying.

I realise (most probably) will not be interested in reapplying so all this is totally irrelevant (sorry)! At this point, people will be understandably exhausted and deflated and thinking "What more could I have done?" But their feelings can change between now and results day, so I just wanted to mention this because many can (and do) make successful post- A-level applications. If DS' four friends who reapplied, all were successful. But more importantly, all had gap years that were worth it regardless.

Sorry that turned out to be quite long!

From that report:

The marks achieved by applicants who sat the main PAT test ranged from 3% to 97%

We know that every year we turn down applicants who, in the end, turn out to be stronger physicists than some of the applicants we do offer places to.

That says it all but it doesn’t make it any easier to know you were just unlucky. Kids work very hard to prepare only then to be told it’s a roll of the dice. There’s a lot of cognitive dissonance

I meant a roll if the dice in that there really can’t be that much between the applicants once they get to interview stage. With the PAT they were either right or wrong with their answers - it’s not so black and white at interview. There were applicants interviewed that had no mark, they must have been the students that had a problem sitting the exam. There seemed to be 2 students interviewed with a score of 24-26, but generally most that made it to interview had scored over 40.

@OxCart I'm a professional expert in secondary school kids, Universities get that whole raw 18 year old growing into twenty something's , they know what they are looking for

Hmm but the physics paper above freely admits it’s not infallible and they often don’t select the best. I appreciate they do what they can within the constraints of a very competitive system. I also think their very clear and early deadlines and communication is admirable and that other universities should adopt the same. I suspect the answer is increasing UK fees to force them to take more UK and less overseas students.

I really feel for you and your son @rejects. I was a 'good' prospect rejected after interview many years ago and it bloody stings. The video made by the tutor at Jesus (Oxford) about rejection is very good - I wish I'd seen it 30 years ago.

All assessment processes are imperfect - there's no way to design a system that produces the right result 100% of the time. Even if there was, I doubt you'd ever get perfect agreement on how to define what a 'correct' outcome even is.

DS2 had something come up in his interview that he'd literally taught himself the night before. In one sense that wasn't luck, because he'd been motivated enough to be teaching himself the night before and he'd understood it and was able to talk about it. In another sense it was a massive stroke of luck because another kid somewhere else might have been doing the same thing but just didn't happen to pick a topic that came up in the interview. Another kid somewhere else might have caring responsibilities/no broadband/no laptop (etc) that prevented them from preparing at all.

That there's not really any such thing as a 'right' outcome is something we struggle to deal with as adults let alone as 17 year olds. As a pp said, there's cognitive dissonance everywhere and it's very hard to cope with.

I really think that England in particular also suffers from the absolutely mad cultural weight we place on just two universities. The international reputations of (eg) Imperial, UCL and LSE are not reflected in most conversations at all. I'm as guilty of this as anyone, I can't claim not to be.

All of this confusion and complexity and disproportionate cultural weight ends up crashing on the shoulders of individual 17 year olds who have been working their bollocks off and still have to focus on a critical six months of study (and their parents).

DS was told that what they were looking for was for students that were able but also perceived to be suitable to their system and style of teaching. He was asked questions in regards to what he’s been doing to further his knowledge since his application and also how he coped with the workload of 4 A levels, he wasn’t expecting these types of questions as had been told that it wouldn’t be about him as such, more on how he worked through the questions he was given in the interview. So the interviews were more rounded than he was expecting, though still difficult. He really wasn’t expecting an offer at all.

That was a very interesting report @OnePlusOneEquals - thanks for posting. Do you (or anyone) know whether similar is printed for Chemistry at Oxford please?

The report of Oxford Physics Admissions shows the extent of the competition for places.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/www.physics.ox.ac.uk/system/files/file_attachments/AdmissionsReportDec2022.pdf

63.3% of applicants were classified as UK applicants.

Of the top 100 applicants by PAT mark, only around a quarter of these had all their secondary schooling within the UK educational system (either state or independent sectors).

DD (in her second year there at present) says she can only assume they took her for the entertainment value. She has had tutors turn to her and say, 'And now, let's ask MiniSquid how she justifies her very different interpretation...'

Haha @FlyingSquid my DS would appreciate that!

Thanks for this and everyone else's lovely, helpful comments. Ds is in a totally different place today, thanks to v encouraging talk with the head of his subject - he just needed to hear the teachers' affirmations who obviously know him far better than a don on a Teams call. The school want him to reapply, he says he probably won't (and I don't want him to) but we'll see come results day, it will also depend if he gets an offer from his second choice SA, which he really loves.

I agree only worth reapplying with top grades and only with a fantastic plan of how to spend the year. Ds2 who is a far more sensitive type has been very shaken by seeing his brother upset and will definitely not apply for anywhere until after A levels - generally, I am now going to advise people to do the same. It's too much when you are so busy with Y13 anyway and losing confidence at this stage in the game is just horrible. I really appreciate everyone's support on this.

Everyone here sounds so level headed and pragmatic. Unlike my friend whose dd was rejected and is blaming everything and everyone- it's all the fault of of the gap year students, covid, rich parents tutoring, private school applicants taking all the places, etc. etc. She's not considered her dd might have ranked low on the attainment test or not performed well in interview. She's had more help and support with her education in general and preparation for Oxford than any other student I know. She's been taken to Oxford to look round the university regularly, since being a little girl, and the idea she would go there one day planted in her mind from such a young age I don't think the poor girl can even envisage herself anywhere else. My friend has made her dd's education and getting into Oxford a full time job- this is the main reason she doesn't work herself! It's so unhealthy. I almost feel slightly relieved she was rejected because she would have been unbearable company otherwise- I know I would have had to hear endless tales about the struggles she'd been through but how they 'saw the genius' in her that she knew was there all along! Hopefully, the dd can go to one of the other excellent universities she has offers at and develop into a more well rounded person because of it. I suspect she'll reapply instead though!