Anyone watching 'How to crack the class ceiling'?

[Aslockton]

On BBC2 now about how working class university student break through barriers to land elite jobs.

@Rummikub
Has anyone ever defined “working class” in this modern age? The low wage parent doesn’t pay for Dc going to university. Their child gets full loan and probably a bursary. The child of the infamous “JAM”
parent is almost certainly worse off. These are the parents who cannot afford to support Dc but are supposed to. Their Dc might have to work to support their studies. Dc of the working class poor don’t have to do this as they can get well over £10,000 to live on whilst at university.

Secondly, how do we really know that “working class” Dc want these jobs? The ones I meet have no interest whatsoever. They like who they are, who their friends are, their home towns and lifestyle: their values don’t align with elite jobs. They don’t want to work with people they don’t really like and have avoided at university. So I’m not convinced the motivation is there.

When motivation is demonstrated, I do think there’s a lot on offer. All the elite jobs have paid internships. Some offer a really decent amount. But I hear all the time they don’t pay. They do. Just apply and find out! It’s easy to hide behind rhetoric. The determined do find out and apply.

Contacts count for very little. That’s easy to say. Prove it. What Dc actually get to do an elite job because their parents have mates? Labour politicians come to mind of course (and acting/journalism) but companies in the ftse 100, tech companies, the bar, industry, finance, civil service snd the magic circle really don’t recruit who their employees know. They recruit the best of who applies. If you don’t apply, you don’t get in.

Some jobs seem to attract Dc into them because they live the job: eg the Dc of vets and doctors. They may well have an advantage. However others can do what’s needed to get into the courses and progress to the best jobs too. Most people cannot train Dc into getting an elite job. Dc must be self starters and work it out for themselves. The best do. Others need mentoring. As we have said it is university, degree, motivation, sussing out a strategy, fitting into your chosen career, getting a decent cv and actually doing a decent accurate application!

Family have a big influence on career choice. I see this a lot. If no one in the family has gone to
uni then they rule themselves out as not for them. I spend a lot of time discussing other options eg if you’re interested in being a carer then why not a nurse.

I also see individuals who do want elite careers and without family support or contacts it can be challenging.

I think those low income families absolutely should get full support at uni.

Definitions and figures would be useful to see if there are genuine barriers. From those programmes it seems that there are.

Secondly, how do we really know that “working class” Dc want these jobs? The ones I meet have no interest whatsoever. They like who they are, who their friends are, their home towns and lifestyle: their values don’t align with elite jobs. They don’t want to work with people they don’t really like and have avoided at university. So I’m not convinced the motivation is there.

My cousin taught primary in a small ex-mining village in Fife. Her class were all interrelated with several long-standing family feuds present. They didn’t leave their village to go to the next town, let alone as far as Edinburgh. Their ambition was to do what their parents did - stay at home and watch TV. Multigenerational unemployment. Breaking out of that isn’t about opportunity; it requires them to break away from their community, their families, their culture and their sense of place.

I sadly agree with this.

I’m very much an outlier in my hometown. I couldn’t wait to get out of there and away from it; I felt suffocated, miserable, angry and at odds with everyone, right from being small.

I very clearly remember going to my step sisters house when I was 10; she picked me up on the bus, and we had to go through the nearest city, where I’d never been before. BOOM. Whole other world out there for me. It’s where I went to do my A Levels.

I also had my Great Grandmother whispering in my ear that if only did one thing in my life, to make it Getting Away From Hometown.

The handful that did go to Uni, went local to one of the worst in the country, to do Media Studies, got Thirds and earn the same amount as the ones who went straight into the local factories.

Yes it requires a different message to be heard or at least available.

The programme was discussing individuals who did want something different and it examined the barriers.

@Shelefttheweb, most Scottish unis widening access programs use SIMD(1-4) (+ care experienced, carer, asylum seeker, refugee) are you saving that this only picks up 20% of the most deprived kids? How would you select?

@Rummikub
I am aware the programme looked at some aspects of what it considered barriers but many of us thought it had limited factual information.

It is a constant theme on MN that posters want a university experience for their DC where DC will be with people like them. In other words, they do not want to mix with privately educated pupils. I have long argued all students should attempt to mix. It’s inevitable that people will need to mix in elite jobs and yet parents want separation to continue and so do DC. I’ve seen it time and time again that there is no ambition for elite jobs because staying with “people like us” is more important. I wholeheartedly think support is there for high flyers from any background. You just have to want it and be a creditable candidate.

Upthread I wrote about a brilliant student with excellent interpersonal skills who could not get a job in the financial sector despite our combined best efforts and my belief that he would have been one of my most successful placements ever. He had many working class markers including bad teeth, but sought ‘quant’ jobs which are not client facing.

Following @TizerorFizz ’s recent posts I have been reviewing the placements of my other STEM students. I think the tech sector is for the most part meritocratic, but outcomes for my students going into finance do seem to be class based. Very few students from working class backgrounds cracked this sector, with almost all of them failing interviews. No academic, skills (interpersonal or otherwise) or objective differentiators that I could see. Interestingly, the Overseas students allowed to remain in the UK to work were usually also successful, and they came from families able to afford our high Overseas fees.

But my point was not that there aren’t opportunities and support but you need first to distinguish yourself from your community (I mean within yourself) and, to some extent, be prepared to lose that community. I think it is easier to see alternative routes and alternative possible communities within cities. It is probably a factor in why white working class boys from small seaside towns are them most underachieving group in the UK.

@Shelefttheweb
I think if you read my earlier post you will see I agree with you. However I feel smaller steps might be needed. Get to the best university first. Then worry about glass ceiling. Build up resilience to escape from your community because you want more. It’s very hard to do that when relatives say you are getting above yourself. I’ve totally ignored that crap from DHs family. Others need to in order to achieve elite jobs.

but outcomes for my students going into finance do seem to be class based. Very few students from working class backgrounds cracked this sector, with almost all of them failing interviews. No academic, skills (interpersonal or otherwise) or objective differentiators that I could see
@poetryandwine an interesting insight.

According to a DC who is in one of the supposedly coveted IB finance positions the ability to be clear and engaging communicators stands out as a shared characteristic. Perhaps fewer ‘working class’ students have the opportunity to develop that professional quality by the time they are applying for graduate positions.

This is very interesting, @sendsummer I will take it forward. Thank you

I agree that being engaging and clear communicators is a key factor in plenty of the higher paid jobs (and necessary for getting on with the clients). If I look at the young people I know from lots of different backgrounds that factor stands out including my daughter's friend from a very difficult background, criminal sibling, no proper London, from London, black etc but if you talk to that person the ability to engage, have conversations, debates is just amazing. I sometimes thing it is born not made actually as I was a very shy child and some of my chidren aren't and we did nothing differently between them to make one like X and on like Y.

On the wanting to stay happily as you are, Lucy Kellaway of the FT who is now teaching in my native NE England touched on that in her recent column - thazt how happy the children were at the Catholic secondary school where she teaches, how much they want a lot of free time and not to work hard and just be and of course she rightly raises the point that there may well be nothing wrong with that - not everyone wants to move, earn more, do a difficult job.

Finally a lot of people tend to do what their parents do. My sibling is not onl a doctor but exactly the same specialism as my late father. I am a lawyer as are 4 of my children. Even if you get it down to Oxbridge, my siblings went to Oxbridge and I did not try. Noen of my 5 children wanted to have a go at trying either, perhaps because I had not. (I would obviously have fully supported them had they wanted to try as would their schools). However each of my siblings' children who are at the right age for university are now at Oxbridge. May be we all become our parents in a sense and lots of people just want to do or have what their parents had - not everyone of course, but plenty.

I don’t think you can make a sparkling personality either. I don’t think loads of people really want to move away from what they know and in fact enjoy their friends and experiences. Obviously not all. I not sure it helps that very competent decent DC are described as gifted either. Academics simply are not everything that’s needed but it’s a good start.

It's interesting the traits you associate with success. I wonder how much an impact being beautiful has on success. I read somewhere once that most world leaders are tall - there are exceptions of course - which seems to point to other stuff at play. Are extroverts more successful than introverts? Are narcissistic personalities more successful?

@Xenia Being an engaging communicator I am sure helps - the old charisma at work. I suspect people can mimic charisma.

I am sure sociologists, anthropologists and psychologists will have a view.

Winston Churchill 5’6”. Richi Sunak 5’6”. Sarkozy 5’5”. Putin 5’7”. Stalin 5’6”. Margaret Thatcher 5’5” as is Angela Merkel. USA presidents are generally taller!

It was an interesting documentary and it really got me thinking...

As mum to two young children, working class, living in a deprived area....what do you suggest I do or go about bringing them up to ensure my children have the confidence and the chance to compete with those from more privileged backgrounds?

Well one question is: how do you instil confidence? What do you think you could do? What if they are naturally reticent or very quiet? I’m not entirely sure that trait can be changed! However drama lessons might help. But not if it terrifies them! Being confident to express ideas and answer questions at school helps. So talk about more serious issues. Express opinions.

When they are older, best possible university and academic subject. However they might want Photography and there won’t be much you can do about it. Be discerning about school snd subjects they take as far as possible. I also think it’s a mistake to keep thinking Dc are not privileged. It sounds like they have a very dedicated parent. That’s more than some have. There’s so much you can access.PP funding. More money for university that you are not being asked to cough up. Lower grades for great universities: contextual offers. Mentoring. Courses where more privileged Dc are excluded, eg Sutton Trust. You have to research everything!

What do you want them to do for a career that’s highly competitive? We had no idea what Dc wanted before they were 16.

I think am even smaller step is needed first - showing children from these communities that there are alternatives.

You can do a LOT with a dedicated, on the ball parent, so don’t discredit yourself that way.

Examples.

Studying was so hard for me. So many times I wanted to throw the towel in, not because the course was hard, but because life just kept throwing shit at me. I didn’t, because I have my children watching everything I do, but as they were primary aged/a toddler, I didn’t think much of it.

My eldest DD and I recently had a very long conversation about various things.

• Pausing

What she’s learned is this - pausing is okay. Pausing is, in fact, required, at times, in order to regroup. Whether it’s just a piece of homework that’s frustrating her (so she will stop, take a shower/snack/talk to me/piss around on her phone), then get back to it, or if it’s something huge - like the Pandemic - that requires a much longer pause in order to figure out the next step.

Continuing to barrel through isn’t the only option and can lead to disaster.

• Asking for help

This leads on from the Pandemic. Lone parent, 3DC. Asked a friend (furloughed) to be a bubble buddy within a few weeks as I was supposed to be revising for exams, but found it impossible. So she would come over, babysit, I’d make us whatever she wanted for dinner as a thanks, and I bought her a bottle of her favourite gin (spendy).

Not knowing something/being unable to do something/etc isn’t a failure or anything to do with your character, is nothing to be embarrassed about, and sticking your head in the sand, again, can lead to disaster.

There are others; but I’m currently helping said child with Physics and stepped away for a break because I can’t stand it But those two things were the main point of conversation and there are countless other big and small examples of both.

Something to think about - children of immigrants generally do well everywhere. Parents may not even speak the language and work menial jobs and they may all live in one room. How do you think these kids succeed?

Granted they are more likely to become doctors/ engineers or do jobs where charm and social confidence is less important. None the less on the whole they will be more successful than their parents

Why do you guys think this is?

@chopc
Because they actually are clever and want it more? They don’t have the background of community dragging at them. Their new community now has ideals and ambition. They have already made their big move away! By being here.

I disagree about social confidence and being a doctor! They do need that for the sake of their patients. Charm not so much but who knows a Dr who isn’t confident? Engineers who are socially confident do better too. Also these careers are STEM. That’s another issue. They are defined careers by direct qualifications. They are not degrees like history, politics, media studies, MFL that have no defined careers post graduation.

Also are engineers and doctors a glass ceiling? I don’t think so. Engineering jobs are not difficult to get. Getting into a medicine degree is a big hurdle but once you are over it, you will get a job. Not do for many other degrees, eg law. The glass ceiling, to my mind, is getting elite jobs where thousands apply. Not a (more or less) guaranteed job at the end of a degree. I’ve no doubt some Dc find it difficult to get into some degrees but the programme was about accessing careers at hard to get into jobs post degree.

Because their parents value education. And traditionally careers like medicine, engineering are highly valued too.

Also if you look at a break down of numbers it’s not the same across all ethnic minority groups.

@TizerorFizz you are right . However these kids who go on to become engineers/ doctors have cracked the class ceiling no?

I know this is not what the programme was about

Yes of course you need to be confident in your ability to be a doctor but you don't necessarily need to "sell" yourself is what I meant

@Rummikub yep. A huge barrier to anyone from poor socioeconomic background is the lack of parental aspiration for them

I think that careers such as teaching, nursing, medicine and engineering are accessible for those that work hard and get right grades. Work experience in schools and care homes are readily accessible.

I think the programme looked at glass/ class ceiling careers where your background does seem to have an impact. It was interesting to read Poetry&Wine’s own findings.