Anyone watching 'How to crack the class ceiling'?

[Aslockton]

On BBC2 now about how working class university student break through barriers to land elite jobs.

I need to watch this. His previous doc was really good.

This is so interesting, @IAmTheFire It doesn’t sound like anyone from your course went on to a degree in my field, so we can’t compare. You already know I admire you.

You’e mentioned pros and cons to Access vs A levels. I agree traditional UGs tend to have a harder time putting forth consistent effort in the UK than in my home country or in America. I am glad it was different for you.

I am sorrier than I can say for much of what you struggled with, and I hope you are doing well now.

You say you would have preferred a Foundation course, and this is a point of agreement between us - may I ask how you ended up on an Access course instead? I share your worry that we are missing many wonderful women who could succeed in STEM if we could properly support them on our Foundation courses

@Poetryandwine I have seen other posts you have written and they are always intelligent, constructive and balanced in judgement. On reflection it's not that I don't agree with you, it's more that I find it sad that from your inside vantage point the access system is so broken that you have no choice but to come to that conclusion.

I don’t think there are enough Foundation courses. The DD I know that did foundation vet course at Nottingham had the “wrong” science A levels. She did have outstanding results in the A levels she took though. She was also 18. Not 28 with no A levels. So we need analysis of who is getting foundation places.

@poetryandwine there was one foundation course near me (at the Uni I eventually went to) and they wouldn’t allow me on the course because I didn’t have A Levels At the time, it was for students who got CCC or similar. Their advice was do an Access course and if I got all Distinctions I might be able to get straight onto a degree, but they weren’t sure. So I thought I’d have to do Access AND a foundation year based on their wishy-washy response.

@MarthaMoose I think most of our Access students were from the one course. I certainly do not intend to tar the entire sector. But I do think different courses are meant for different purposes, and what doesn’t prepare applicants for our rather theoretically orientated degree programmes may be very good at preparing them for more vocationally orientated ones. Nor do I think that statement is snobbish - STEM employers recruit from different programmes for different types of well paying jobs. The Access programmes and the degree programmes they successfully feed would not characterise the system as broken.

But yes, unless our inadequate outreach can steer you to a Foundation Year instead, a number of more theoretical RG degree programmes will likely be closed off and I hate this. @TizerorFizz is partly correct that FY is for those who have the wrong A levels. We certainly use it as a second chance for those who didn’t quite make the grade(s) the first time, but show potential, even if that is just through maturation. In my experience, convincing the FY office of your seriousness of purpose counts for a lot

Oh, @IAmTheFire that is frustrating!

Yes, the inability of some recruiters to recognise what is difficult even just for interviews -getting to London for an interview - impossible cost for some (although even back in my day 1980s law firms paid my rail fares to get to London for interviews) or not having the right clothes etc. In the programme as I said above the BBC presenter and the finance graduate who got no jobs wore the wrong shoes. We somehow need to help teenagers learn what they need to do to get some of these jobs - eg if black shoes are needed and you can only afford one pair of smart shoes to last you 10 years when you are 16 then someone at schools shoudl be telling them this is the pair you buy if you want those veyr high paid city jobs - just as my teacher mother drummed into her pupils in Newcastle you never say you was, you don't say haitch, you don't drop your ts, you get your prepositions right - never "on the weekend" but at the weekend. She had methods to teach that I can remember to this day - eg you don't sit on top of the weekend so it is not on the weekend.

It would be good if teachers of teenagers could be drumming these things into those wanting particular kinds of jobs where that matters.

@poetryandwine just checked and yes, all foundation courses are for A Levels, now the grades are BBC for Bio/Chem course, BBB for Physics/Engineering course, BCC for midwifery/nursing/physio.

It says they encourage mature students with evidence of recent study.

@IAmTheFire do you think that in practice excellent performance on an Access course would be enough for an FY? I realise that this means two years of prep for university. That is a problem I am not denying. But I am still curious. Thanks very much

I mean, I went straight into a Microbio degree without a FY and was fine; in fact I found the first year tedious at times and not much of a step up from the Access year and it repeated around half the content. My Chemistry/Biochem friends said the same.

I'm not sure if all Access courses are equal, though. What I think is worth exploring is that the lack of progress with Access students who have got all/mostly Distinctions is most likely to be due to life circumstances than anything else.

Having said that, I was the 30 something, the only single parent in my college class, in my Uni cohort and now in my Masters cohort. The majority were early 20s, the rest were late 20s, all had supportive families/partners.

With respect, @IAmTheFire , you said you found the major exams difficult. And you are clearly very able, so I am wondering if Access students might not be learning good exam skills?

I very much take your point about life circumstances and wish we offered better campus child care options for UG students as in my home country and America

@poetryandwine formal exams are hard for me due for various aspects of ADHD. Working memory, memory recall, etc. They’re also hard for students with a wide range other disabilities too, they’re exclusive in a variety of ways. I find them a very old fashioned, hark back to when only rich upper class boys were allowed an education way of testing someone’s knowledge and progress.

Uni offer plenty of exam skill sessions in the libraries and absolutely none of them are relevant to anyone with NDs/SpLDs. Our brains just don’t remember or recall information in the same ways as NT brains.

My ability to write things down during a 2 hour exam in no way reflects my actual depth and breadth of knowledge, particularly when it covers an entire years worth of learning that I’d already had weekly/termly exams on and got a 1:1 every time. Mind you, all of my end of year exams were in the 2:1 range and I genuinely thought I’d be getting Low 2:2s at best.

Childcare isn’t a huge issue (in general…) as there’s usually plenty of day nurseries/childminders/school wrap around care, and 85% of the cost was covered for me (an eye watering £2400 a month when all 3 were in full time childcare).

UK childcare in general is terrible in terms of its 8am-6pm Mon-Fri only. No single parent could fund a Nanny for nursing/midwifery/GEM for example, even with 85% covered as it’s just not enough.

When they’re sick for days on end, also a problem. There’s nobody to step in for me and I’ve often been accused of lying about that. My parents have never met my children, my siblings are as chaotic as my parents so I rarely see them and would never ask them to babysit, my friends all work full time!

A Foundation year means taking on additional student loan debt.

With an Access course it’s effectively free as the Advanced learner loan is written off once a student graduates.

It doesn’t seem right to not be explicit in entry requirements. It’s a shame they did t listen to you Poetry.

The other thing to note is that A levels for adults isnt an option in the North west. So these adults are directed to Access. They have progressed to nursing, medicine, dentistry, optometry, biomedical sciences, law and others.

@IAmTheFire if you have any capacity could I suggest joining “inspiring the future”. I have had speakers from there talk to my students. It is v well
received and I think you’re journey is inspiring and worth sharing. You can pick and choose which sessions to deliver if any.

I've got to conclude here that some access courses are pure shit.

Which surprises me. I found access harder than postgraduate tbh. Intense pressure, harsh grading. I walked UG in comparison. Possibly by the time I was doing PG, I understood the requirements better.

Iam, it is an interesting issue about to what extent exams should be changed to suit particular groups other than the usual extra time or right to type them for people with certain conditions. They have made the new solicitor exam SQE1 100% multiple choice to help those with poor English (which is ludicrous in my view as solicitors have to write legal advice and speak to clients and has not worked as the groups they tried to help are doing just as badly).

Some have asked for the exams to be changed because their condition makes multiple choice hard for them. However that has not been changed as yet presumably as MCQ are very cheap to mark by machine.

My sons found their exams over the last three summers easier because of covid so they could type rather than write the exams and for those exams that are "open book" with webcam/proctored/observed the access to materials on paper (but not electronically) helps anyone with poor memory,

When GCSEs moved to multiple choice though boys did much worse as they tend to be last minute merchants. In fact last week one of my sons had his last exam ever and deliberately had a friend round the night before, then worked from 11pm to 4am and says he did well as he likes working under pressure (foolish boy but at least he knows what gets him high marks - all that last minute pressure just before an exam).

I prefer exams to course work as I need the pressure.

I think qualifications should be a combination of both. Assignments probably replicate work skills better. Eg I still write reports but don’t have to demonstrate exam skills.

Xenia - Dont second language speakers also have to offer a high IELTS score to demonstrate their academic English skills?

I had mixed feelings about the programme. I think there is absolutely a class ceiling but the programme didn’t tell us enough about the candidates. Did they have brilliant academics, did they do volunteering, could they write a decent application etc? The premise seemed to be that they all absolutely deserved a top job and the nasty companies were being discriminatory by not taking them on but they may well not have been the best candidates.

When I did graduate recruitment I had to be brutal. Badly written applications were dumped. I had so many applications from straight A candidates with loads of extra ciricular stuff, internships etc. I sometimes tried to be generous and take a few through to interview that probably weren’t going to make it but could benefit from the interview experience. Those candidates were nearly always shit at interview unfortunately but I hope they found the experience useful for future interviews- I always have detailed feedback.

One of the unspoken truths is that oxbridge prepares students well for grad recruitment. Bright kids go into an environment where they are pushed, have to argue and defend themselves verbally in tutorials, generally have a higher workload and are surrounded by other bright kids. That just isn’t really the same experience as sitting in a lecture theatre with 250 people and attending the odd seminar in a lower ranked institution. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that you see the same universities coming up time and time again as the ones sending students into top jobs. Some of it will be bias and laziness by recruiters but some of it will be a higher calibre of student, more challenging subjects etc. You can see this a bit from those big companies that do institution blind recruitment and still end up with heavy oxbridge or Russel Group.

My university is non-Oxbridge Russell Group. I think @Bunnycat101 makes excellent points about why Oxbridge candidates ought to do well even with university-blind recruitment - a growing trend I wholeheartedly approve of.

Maybe not coincidence but possible bias? The assumption that they must be better?

Mostly, they probably are. They've been prepped for years.

But how to address the class imbalance in elite careers?

Actually look at graduates and not assume they're better or worse based on their university

I know professors, and stereotypes often have basis in reality.

Yes, they are brilliant. But something has to give to attain that level of academia.

I don't think a lot of them could cope in the real world. They are brilliant in their ivory towers of academics, but I found them lacking in many respects. I keep in touch with one and he fully admits his family have to accept they will never be the loves of his life. He told me to tell my kids that they couldn't expect any more from me if I wanted to go further.

He genuinely meant it. It was flattering that he was prepared to take me on as a PhD student (he is well known) but I wasn't prepared to do that.

I think that’s what this programme and the previous one were covering. That interviewers recruit people like them. That look like them or sound like them.