Anyone watching 'How to crack the class ceiling'?

[Aslockton]

On BBC2 now about how working class university student break through barriers to land elite jobs.

To be pushed off the glass cliff?

Not much point in widening participation then? As another thread posted...

Yes I did

AR had done a similar programme about breaking into the elite. I thought it was the same programme. (It might be the same one?)

I went to a HE conference and there was a lot about widening participation. Depressingly though it feels like it’s just lip service.

It’s not lip service, @Rummikub Lots of universities give lower offers to Dc from deprived areas. Look at the huge schools list that get lower offers for Bristol. Then look at all the generous bursaries. Don’t forget the Sutton Trust and what they offer in terms of coaching. There’s a lot out there. The key is that schools need to know about it and ensure Dc get the info.

I heard AR talking about DC who had really top jobs and what they did to secure them. Basically became the same as other applicants!! They didn’t change the world. They just joined in.

How would you change the system if you were in charge? I do recognise that a lot of the focus is on the individual to fit into the flawed system. It seems like a pragmatic response but I do wonder if you truly wanted to try and change the system what would you do.

Oh I’m not denying those schemes exist at all. The question was asked how do we widen participation for competitive courses such as vet science. They wouldn’t consider Access or BTEC. And I believe that’s part of the problem.

Tbf Bristol did welcome Access applicants.

Depends if lower class can actually thrive in that kind of environment. It's great so many are accepted but realistically it's who can survive. I could be wrong. But I am just looking for views

If the system is set up so you don’t fit in then you’ll never thrive even if you get in the door.
i felt sorry for the woman that qualified as a barrister but couldn’t get a pupillage so ended up taking her solicitor exams. Her accent and class didn’t fit.

@Rummikub
My DD is a barrister. Just to let you know the facts. Around 1400 qualify as barristers every year. Around 400 pupillages are available. Some barristers have years of expertise in their professional field and then train as barristers. They usually will get pupillage. If you don’t get pupillage, you can keep trying. Therefore the number of candidates is vast. The majority of opportunities are in London. The regional bar has fewer opportunities. In other words, competition is fierce. It’s also relentless and you need to be very savvy about applications. You are also advised to apply for fees scholarships from your Inn of Court who really do help disadvantaged candidates.

You also have to be really switched on about which areas of law are a bit easier to get into and more accepting of less then top drawer qualifications, ie don’t require Oxbridge or outstanding bar qualification. DD understood this. Some areas of law are hugely difficult to get into so every candidate must play to their strengths, understand where they might be successful and mightily enhance their cv. It’s a bit ? to say it’s discrimination or similar when thousand from all backgrounds are in the same position.

DDs friends come from all sorts of schools and backgrounds but they have ticked every box. It is just ludicrously competitive - for everyone.

Agree. A bit convenient to comment on her graduation day that somebody allegedly commented on her accent. Chip on a shoulder.

Well on becoming a barrister (via a ceremony at your Inn of Court) you will (should) have already have applied for pupillage. My DD had pupillage before she startled her bar course. Most do not but it’s nothing whatever to do with the ceremony.

I think there needs to be a degree of honesty about why someone hasn’t got what they want. Where did she go to university? What scholarships did she get? What are her qualifications and experience? What area of law did she want? Were her applications grammatically accurate? Did she stand out as a candidate? Applications are written. They a not via a nano second of a conversation at a ceremony with someone who has no influence over your career at all.

It would be interesting to see figures for which applicants get pupillage. Eg What are there backgrounds/ connections?

I agree that forward planning is essential for such a competitive area.

‘Their‘ not ‘there’

@Rummikub
DD and friends have no connections at all as far as I know. They are universally fantastic young people who deserve their success. My DH and me have absolutely no connections. We didn’t even know how DD could become a barrister. DH was the first in his family to go to university and I didn’t go (eventually part time for a professional qualification! ) DD did everything herself.

However if you look across many professions you find DC follow parents into careers. So the DC of doctors become doctors, vets Dc become vets etc.You could argue the parents give the DC an advantage but of course the DC must perform well too. Law is not the only profession where the jobs of parents might influence career choices. As for getting DC pupillage, I don’t think they can. Where Dc might gain is living with law in the house, as vets and doctors DC gain. Certainly actors!

I do think we cannot rule out home influence but plenty of talented people don’t have this and are successful. There are certain attributes that help though. Clarity of speech and impeccable written English. Accents don’t matter but clearly a barrister must be understood. Confidence is vital. Planning your career is vital. Do what it takes. Everyone, as far as I can see, is bending over backwards to be welcoming and ensure talent gains recognition and definitely from diverse backgrounds.

Yes I agree that there is the tendency for dc to follow parents careers. UCAS collect data about parent’s job.
As well as access to the role those dc can make use of their connections eg for work experience. I see the difference those connections make to students in the quality of their experience and personal statements.

Your dd did fantastically well without those connections. What would be her top tips? Some students don’t appreciate what they have to do in order to achieve in these competitive careers. There are others that do everything right and not get there

There are work exp opportunities, a lot virtual, and some irl but not enough in some sectors imo.

And it would be useful for unis to consider alternative qualifications too

@Rummikub
I think DD is a self starter. She’s not put off by anything and researched the career herself.

You don’t need a law degree but it’s best to do any strong academic degree at the best university you can get to. Obviously not everyone goes to Oxbridge but it’s not a great idea to choose Northampton or equivalent. Few have average grade A levels. So aim high. Alternative qualifications are accepted by some universities of course but becoming a barrister is hugely competitive. Neither is it all about qualifications, but they do help.

Therefore make absolutely sure you can work accurately at speed. That’s why Oxbridge is so favoured. DD didn’t go there but speed of thought, accurate writing and critical thinking matter. Do a bit of acting! Be a confident articulate speaker. Join societies - even run one.

Do everything you can at university to investigate law if you are not studying it. Visit courts. Ask for work experience at a solicitor. Apply for minI pupillages. Do voluntary work: DD did cab and manned phones for a domestic abuse charity - when she did the law conversion course after university. Join debating societies at university. Get all
the info you can get from the bar council and Inns of Court. Go to any open days. Go to law careers events at university. You do have to demonstrate you want this career.

You also do what is needed to get a great cv. You then need to apply for training and scholarships. If you want this career the deadlines are fast and furious. Join an Inn of Court (mandatory anyway) and use them! They have £millions to help student barristers. Network. It’s very very full on. There is a feeding frenzy to get pupillage. DD got pupillage where she had done a mini pupillage. Use those weeks well. They are like mini internships.

If anyone wants to know anything else, I’m happy to share. However what DD does is one area of law. There are many others.

That’s great advice @TizerorFizz

I do encourage young people to use their own initiative.

Law is incredibly popular at the moment.

I think although the program is good the questions it raises are more nuanced. I think elite professions may not have a bias to certain backgrounds per se but it may be the case that the uni verified they recruit from have had their own bias towards background (though widening participation is addressing this). If hypothetically 70% of Oxbridge grads are privately educated with received pronunciation is it the fault of employers who are drawing talent from top universities that their graduate intake reflects the intake of those universities?

the question that underlies all this is do you introduce positive discrimination to allow our elite professions to reflect society more widely and does that in itself undermine meritocracy? I think programs like this need balance in that a lot of the privately educated intake to elite jobs are actually very good and possibly would have gained those positions in merit independent of schooling type. We need to avoid the private school = bad and state = good narrative as that is necessarily divisive..

personally I think AR has developed a little bit of a chip at some point in his career. He was educated at good state school then Cambridge before getting a well paid high profile job in national media. Is there a bit of pulling up the drawbridge here if he is advocating that elite professions broaden their university intake?

@TizerorFizz I have a DD like yours. Very self motivated and academically clever. I suspect she will achieve. I know people in my workplace that are similar and are very successful but they all have one thing in common - they are remarkable people. Their success is largely because of their skills. They are not average. Average people from working class backgrounds will not be as successful as average people from middle class backgrounds. And therein is the challenge.

His previous programme about how to break into the elite mentioned a code ie how you speak and there’s more likely to be connections and common ground if you went to certain schools or unis. Interviewers tend to recruit people like them.

There's always outliers of course.

I think there is a danger of getting too conspiratorial about the old school tie being relevant in 2022.

We are talking in general about recruitment to competitive elite professions and there will be many unsuccessful candidates from all backgrounds. There is a danger in thinking as a working class graduate you are unsuccessful simply because of class as that can lead to unjustified bitterness. You have the potential of a victim hood mentality setting in where you believe all unsuccessful job applications are due to conscious of unconscious bias and not due to performance. Professions may also be irked by the accusation they are not picking the best person for the role when that may not be the case.

Or

Good points. I am a solicitor with 2 solicitor daughters and 2 trainee solicitor sons (and the other son who was a post man for 3 years after his degree and now drives a food delivery van - I mention him just for balance). So my children have certainly chosen law probably in part because they know it. Simialrly my sibling is not only a doctor like my late father abut they did/do exactly the same specialism - both consultants in the same area. My uncle was also a doctor. None of this is connections, it is simply perhaps people being very boring and copying their parents.

I will have a look at the BBC programme as it sounds quite interesting.

For solicitors now instead of either a 3 year LLB or a one year law conversion all that is needed is SQE1 exams which are 100% multiple choice because they found in trials that those who were BAME apparently did much worse if they had to write English, essays, problem answers etc. Yet despite that in the latest results there is still a massive difference so a study has been commissioned into why this is happening. SQE2 exam is skills. (By the way if people don't do an LLB or law conversion they might still qualify but no one might hire them so it is an interesting change and I hope students are not misled into thinking they can not bother with an LLB or law conversion as not technically necessary under the new system). Other than a degree in any subject you like there is no requirement to do a single day of a law course ever for solicitors now (which is ridiculous in my view, talk about dumbing down and damaging the public) as long as you pass SQE1 and 2 exams and do 2 years legal services work experience which can be unpaid at the CAB even.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001fygr