Anyone watching 'How to crack the class ceiling'?

[Aslockton]

On BBC2 now about how working class university student break through barriers to land elite jobs.

I think plenty of state educated Dc have confidence. I think it’s difficult to teach too. You just have it!

Even in an environment they’re not used to?

I think there are a lot of hurdles in the way for working class state educated to achieve elite careers. Of course some do but it seems a minority.

Really interesting and I agree that the system is self preserving in the main.

Confidencbe is very interesting. I went to a fee paying day girls' school and was very shy. Loads of people are shy at private schools. I was quite good at public speaking and did drama exams but I would cross the road to avoid speaking to a neighbour and have ultimately made sure I work alone as I am happiest alone. My children vary but have similar schooling so I do think to an extent whether male or female some people just are very outgoing - eg one of mine was rushing round aged 3 when being interviewed for nursery school speaking to all kinds of strangers even then whereas I would have hung back and felt very shy.

Also at work usually it is as "Justsomeone* says with men - even some working class men - just heaps of testosterone and attempts to dominate everything. I certainly accept there may be more of that in fee paying schools particularly for boys and probably particular boarding school where in a sense the school damages you psychologically inside by depriving you of those whom youj love and you build a hard carapace if that's the word over the wound and are damaged for life but perhaps confidence (and not all of them are confident) - one reason I prefer day private schools. Fo rboarding ones you almjost pay to have your child damaged and probably get worse exam results than the very academic private schools and state grammars.

There are certainly things we can teach people. One of my lawyer children has been helping an intern who is there because they have a very difficult background, to give them a chance. My child made huge efforts to go into work early, get a group of other trainees to see this person before their very busy work and he just did not show up even though my child had written it down, reminded him etc. If you have the chance of a life time and you just don't bother to turn up on time and put a lot of people out that is not going to endear you to it. We have been on holiday abroad in countries with a very loose sense of time and it may well be cultural but law firms are not giong to allow people to be late as clients will move to another firm so if you cannot be on time then no matter what your class or culture that is one rule that is going go get you marked down.

@Rummikub
Yes. Absolutely. Why do you think all state educated pupils are downtrodden individuals with no confidence? It means no one would ever get a very good job and that’s not true at all. They would never excel at an interview, but they do. The bigger dividing issue is university and course studied. The main issue around “self preservation” as you call it is demonstrable intelligence, fitting in with the company ethos and ability to do a job. Firms want these. All of them. So people need to be aware of what’s needed but of course they can achieve. There is also a problem that some students simply take an easy route. Don’t push themselves. Employers do notice this. Could the student have excelled at a better university/course if they had investigated this avenue. The poorest get decent financial help with no household contributions. Therefore they need to make the most of it.

How frustrating for your dc! And v kind of them to offer the support.

Not at all saying they are downtrodden Tizer. I’m saying there are additional barriers in the way that can halt progression. Some will get through but not many.

The ‘fit’ is where I think there’s an issue. If you’ve never been in a position to experience certain situations then you may not be confident at that time.

None of these Dc are applying straight from school. They have had two years to assess what’s needed and go for it. If someone wants to push through the glass ceiling, a certain amount of self help will be needed. In fact it’s very wrong to say all private school Dc are ultra confident either.

I think boarding can produce confidence. In women definitely. There’s a certain amount of common sense required to flourish, organising your time, taking part in numerous activities and generally getting on with others can be beneficial. Doesn’t suit all of course.

I don’t think anyone is familiar with interviews and new situations faced regarding job applications. So I think many people find this challenging.

A fascinating aspect of it was the suggestion firms in the City are just going through the motions to trumpet diversity but not in practice recruiting enough people who are from lower classes. The student was told brown shoes would not rule you out for a job, yet the presenter said when they left despite that they saw 70 employees in that company and 100% had black shoes and only the presenter (who also as well as dropping his Ts in an irritating way and having lots of extra words and like and that kind of thing between his words, had all kinds of gold jewellery all over him) and the student were the only 2 people there that day in brown shoes

Interesting. My DH is a senior manager for a well known oil company and wears brown shoes. I tease him about them but he says all his colleagues wear them. He rarely wears a tie or jacket (and wears both even more rarely). My point is that it isn't the colour of your shoes that's important, but the ability to notice what other people are wearing and adapt accordingly so you "fit in". Working class people are just as capable of doing this as middle class people.

... Fitying in doesn't mean you have to compromise on things you care about though. My DH still has a soft regional accent and parks his 1 litre 3 door car in a car park full of executive company cars. 😁

When I started on a graduate programme in a top management consultancy company back in my early twenties, as part of induction we got a long memo regarding acceptable dress code, including black shoes only. We were also drilled on general etiquette around clients. Everyone just recognised that these roles were client facing from the start and it was important to fit in with the professional image of the company. Things haven't changed very much over the years. I have never perceived a regional accent being a block to acceptance or career progression. The big consultancies tend to be American so I don't know if that is a factor. I think accents can naturally evolve over time when someone lives in a different place but that varies by individual. It is sad if people feel they have to drop a regional accent for career progression as it is a significant part of identity. Where does the reinvention end?

With black shoes!

Wearing black shoes isn’t faking anything. It’s not giving up anything of yourself. Purposefully dropping a regional accent or masking a working class background is losing part of your identity. You can conform to the professional norms of an organisation without resorting to that. There is a clear distinction.

A regional accent isn't a reliable class marker, any more than a Scottish, Irish or Welsh accent, because there are middle class folk in the regions too. When people assume someone with a regional accent is working class they are just stereotyping.

My North East accent softened naturally when I moved south, and comes back when I talk with friends and relatives from there. I sometimes have a Yorkshire lilt when I'm with my husband (from Leeds), and I picked up a bit of Oz when I lived in Melbourne for a year. My nephew spent his early childhood in the North West before moving to London at age 8 and losing his regional accent, but he can re-create it brilliantly for his drama classes (and credits it for his A* at GCSE).

My point is that it's natural for accents to adapt. Your identity is shaped throughout your life, not only by your region of origin. Your "class" can also develop throughout your life - if you were born working class, but then go to uni and get a professional job, you are no longer working class, whether you retain your accent or not.

Yes @jabbdabb but there is a difference between natural gradual evolution of accent, and even adopting middle class mannerisms, and conscious efforts to reinvent oneself. I have known people who have done this and they never quite ring true and can end up just making themselves seem more bland somehow. It's like they lose something of their authenticity. I have recruited junior to senior posts in my teams for many years and would never be put off by any accent provided the candidate was engaging and articulate. Subtle professional polish can easily be added. The intelligence, spark and essence of the person is far more important.

@MizzlyMonday
Why does anyone get upset about black shoes then? People clearly do see it as a hurdle. I don’t agree that it is but it’s about conforming and not really wanting to. I think dress is pretty easy to copy. Clarity of speech and thought is far more difficult. Also accents mean nothing. Very rich people have accents.

@TizerorFizz in my experience they generally wouldn't outside of professional services.

I agree that accents don't matter. However, being very rich doesn't mean anything. It certainly doesn't mean that someone is educated and professional. Some of the brashest people I have ever met are very rich.

The issue of fitting in is fascinating. Clearly it makes sense for most jobs of all types to try to fit in if you want to do well so I don't have any moral problem with people finding they have to fit in whether that be toning down an ultra posh accent or making sure they wear black shoes or that they do or not wear a tie to work. I would tell young potential lawyers eg never to wear bare legs to work rather than assert our individuality by going against the grain. It tends to be bad speech and grammar rather than accent that causes more of a problem in my experience. If your ideas are quick and good and you delve into issues and can describe them the accent will not matter too much.

@MizzlyMonday
I was linking wealth and accent. Wealthy people most certainly can retain accents and it doesn’t hold them back if they are good at what they do. The programme asserted that accents held people back. I feel they don’t and plenty of people demonstrate that by their wealth.

We need to avoid the private school = bad and state = good narrative as that is necessarily divisive..

Totally agree with this. For starters, most private schools are not Eton. And state schools vary considerably. Many state schools are academically better than many private schools - and more elitist with selection based on ability to buy houses in catchment or afford tutoring or private prep schools for grammar exams. Weighing up the cost of housing in a good catchment versus private school fees is a pretty standard judgement call for certain groups of parents.

@Shelefttheweb
Yes it is. Even for parents with accents!

Does everyone then think that things are a level playing field? That there is equal access to elite careers?

Anything but@Rummikub. There are still many barriers for working class kids and universities widening access is just one part of the jigsaw. Educated parents supporting a DC makes a huge difference from a very early age. Unpaid internships that are door openers are only feasible for some. That's if you are even able to secure one in the first place as contacts still count for a lot. People recruit in their own image whether they are recruiting 'blind' or not. There's alk on here about DC being self-starters but it is much easier to be a self-starter if your starting point is from a position of privilege.

@Namechangefor23 that is exactly my thinking too. I appreciate that there are some who do break through but I feel these are exceptional individuals.

In Scotland children from the 20% most deprived areas get priority access to university. However 80% of the most deprived children do not qualify for this as they do not live in those area (which coincidentally mostly vote SNP). So by using such a crude mechanism they actually disadvantage the majority of deprived children.