Lecturer's child at open day for second time

[Igloo71]

I went with DS to our local uni's open day over the summer. The head of department had their child there (with, I assumed, dad helping out in the background - the little girl was running back and forth to a man who seemed to be a parent). She was interrupting throughout the event, but no issues at all, I assumed it was an emergency childcare situation. DS and I laughed about it afterwards and we both had completely forgotten about it until this morning.

He's now at the offer holder event and the child is there again. He's texting me to say it's completely embarrassing as she is talking to them about her department and the child is interrupting constantly, every 5 minutes at least. She is stopping her talk to speak with the child and my DS is just embarrassed on her behalf.

DS is adamant he will never go to this uni now when it had once been his top choice. I'm left wondering if this is the norm at uni's? I've got no idea if DS should be more flexible with his outlook, he's no idea what it's like being a working mum. But equally, she's got possible childcare on site from the uni students.

This isn't a Russell Group uni, but definitely a highly regarded uni and his offer is relatively high (ABB). What do we think?

@HaveringWavering I surely did mean having my 4 year old on stage with me whilst I presented or, failing that, in the front row. Would that be a problem for you?

He knows exactly how much women struggle, he’s seen it first hand. But he’s not a sheep either and his reaction was not to diss the lecturer like those around him, it was more he questioned is this it?*
So what's he spitting his dummy out for and being all adamant he doesnt want to go to his previously 1st choice uni?

So he went from being so irked by it he didn't want to go to university there, to feeling empathy for her and being embarrassed by others apparently heckling her- sure thing. I don't think it would be that wild for him to wonder if the child would be likely to be in lectures too or whatever as he's quite young still, but seems there was more to it and you're now back pedalling. Plenty of people from poor families go to uni now, I think he needs to let go of that being a reason for expecting whatever- he should also get an insight into what it'll be like so he isn't disappointed. Depending on the degree it's not unusual to not actually have many hours of lectures or seminars.

Your posts puzzle me OP as you say you're a hard working single mum, but seem to think that families can conjure up childcare out of nowhere.

Perhaps the child's father was there last time, but perhaps they're working today. Perhaps, like you, the HoD is a single parent who managed to drag a friend along to help last time, but has called on too many favours. The HoD undoubtedly has childcare during the week, but nurseries don't open at weekends.

Has your DS picked the course because it's something he really wants to do, or is he using this as a get out clause for accepting an offer elsewhere or backing out of uni altogether. Perhaps he doesn't really want to do that course locally and now has latched onto something trivial as a reason to turn down the offer. I'd be surprised if he actually saw much of the HoD once he was there. Does he realise he is likely to be taught by a collection of lecturers depending on their specialism, from research students upwards? Taking against one academic who was willing to give up their time to help & encourage 17 & 18 year olds to make an important decision about their future shouldn't be the deal breaker.

[quote MissAngorian]@HaveringWavering I surely did mean having my 4 year old on stage with me whilst I presented or, failing that, in the front row. Would that be a problem for you? [/quote]
If she was tugging your sleeve and interrupting and talking over you, yes, of course that would be a problem.

If she was sitting quietly in the front row, fine.

One child care emergency we can all understand. Two seems odd. Students are given months of notice of when open days are. So the lecturer herself must also have been given weeks of notice of when the first and second were.

I don't want to attend a very important open day to find lecturer has her young child participating.

@HaveringWavering Probably a good job I won't see you there, then. :)

But she wasn't sitting quietly was she? She was completely disruptive, interrupting all the time.

Sit him down and ask him how he sees himself fitting in in university, his hopes of friendship and participation in clubs. Encourage him to join whatever clubs strike his fancy, and to make new friends

THis!!!

OP I teach at a research-intensive university - one of the best for my subject, with a reputation for being only for the privately educated etc etc etc.

We know about the struggle it is for some young people to aspire to university, and to get the grades we require. We know that educational disadvantage maps onto socio-economic disadvantage. THis is why we have a raft of things which try to mitigate against this - although really, by 6th form it can be too late. I mourn the loss of SureStart, and the Blair/Brown government's investment in early childhood enrichment for poorer families. Anyway ...

But once students are at university, I can assure you that academic teaching staff make no distinctions between students based on class. In fact, I've noticed that students raised in more difficult circumstances are sometimes far more robust & able to knuckle down to hard work, than those whose parents bought them educational privilege.

Your DS is really well-advised to go to university with his head held high & see it as a life-enhancing opportunity - to widen his horizons, learn new things (not just in his degree) meet a wide range of people, and generally learn.

Yes, he is likely to land a better paying job than without a degree, but he's also going to get a graduated exposure to the whole world of different people, different experiences.

Most academic staff do this job because we feel a vocation for it - we love knowledge & new ideas and constantly learning, and we want to pass that on. The government may consider universities as "consumer" businesses, but most academic staff most emphatically do not. We want students to expand, learn & really become the best citizens they can be.

[quote MissAngorian]@HaveringWavering Probably a good job I won't see you there, then. :) [/quote]
Look, there is no need to be so defensive. How can it be acceptable in any public speaking context to have a 4 year-old interrupting you? How can you expect people to absorb your academic arguments with a child talking over you? What am I missing here?

And it was important to him, yes. He shouldn’t feel guilty about that

I love how your DS was really judgemental and 'embarassed' for the lecturer, when called out as 'precious' on this thread he's all confused and young and actually felt for her as a 'woman'. Great 180.

It was the whole situation he found embarrassing and awkward. Yes he was disappointed I guess. He’s 17, witnessed other kids behave inappropriately and felt, in his words, second hand embarrassment. That was probably the only thing he could do, other than stop the lecture and publically call out the other kids there which some people think he should have done

So it’s got nothing to do with the reasons in your OP, or the replies in the first few pages about how you would have just taken the day off or about how she’s shit for not getting a student dog walker to look after the girl and it’s now about him being embarrassed about the behaviour of people he doesn’t know and might never see again. In answer to what you are now claiming is your original question about whether “we” think sighing from other people means your ds is inflexible for now being adamant that he won’t go there, despite it being his top choice - you may call it inflexible, I would call it batshit.

And to be clear @MissAngorian I am drawing a distinction between you “giving a paper at a conference” and the lecturer in OP’s scenario having the child interrupting as she chatted more informally about the course. That would have been a bit annoying but not the end of the world.

But what you describe is like an actor’s child wandering on stage during the play.

Open days have loads and loads of student helpers. Surely lecturer could have asked one of them to assist her dd, stop her from interrupting.
The lecture would have gone on normally for 2 hours max. At most open days.

@Oblomov22

But she wasn't sitting quietly was she? She was completely disruptive, interrupting all the time.

Short of drugging them, there's no way to 100% guarantee that a small child will behave or sit quietly during a long presentation. There's always a risk to bringing them. I once took my baby to a meeting on maternity leave. I was attending it as a favour to work and made it clear I'd have to leave if he needed attention. As it was, he slept the whole time but that was just luck. You can't really sit under-8s in the corner with a book and tell them to be quiet for a couple of hours.

That's why I'd tend to agree it's suboptimal and shouldn't be the norm for children to attend. However, the onus should be on the university to at least pay staff expenses for running open days (including childcare), rather than poorly-paid university lecturers to shell out £££ for a weekend nanny or babysitter to attend an unpaid event. Often these people aren't easily replaceable - it's not like there's a pool of people with their skills and experience that the university can call on to run the open day because someone is having childcare issues.

Sit quietly? But to have the child constantly interrupting is just not ok is it?

@MissAngorian so, it'll be ok for your DC's teachers to take their kids in to their own school on term time days that don't match their own then? Distracting their parent and taking the attention away from the class? I imagine there would be many complaints if teachers did such a thing. Same with other professionals. Where you have plenty of notice of events that you need to attend, failing a childcare emergency, you shouldn't just take young children along who can't sit quietly. It is unprofessional and it doesn't look good.

My university would certainly be disputing it hmm we have frequent conversations on how students are not customers.

And what is the conclusion of those conversations?

Your university receives tuition fees per student, and the student takes on a financial liability with respect to those fees. If you don't attract students, you don't receive that income and your university has to make staff redundant, or close down completely. So whether or not you have a job depends on whether students choose to take on a commitment to repay a fees loan for the next 40 years to come to your university.

@HaveringWavering Absolutely not being defensive - we merely have different opinions on this. The sun has been shining, and it's far too nice a day to fall out with strangers on the internet. :)

Thank you @Igloo71 for starting this thread. As you say, lots of informative posts; some expressed in a reasonable way; others less so.

Quite a few academic posters made it clear that some universities have cranked up the number of Saturday open days to an unreasonable and unsustainable level. Several posters have pointed out that there is an imperfect link between the mechanism by which students/taxpayers pay and how universities are actually funded. These factors may well contribute to the disillusionment and disengagement of many academic staff.

It is also clear, and quite shocking, that a sizable minority of academic posters on this thread think they and their institutions are not accountable in any way to the young people who join their student body.

One poster critical of the OP says that it is the SLC that 'pays', conveniently ignoring that the SLC is merely a transmission mechanism for the accumulated debt/tax obligation that is paid by student and taxpayer over subsequent decades.

Another says that, as there is no direct financial link between student and university, the institution's focus is on research and the general advancement of knowledge and any shortcomings in a student's academic experience at the university is essentially not something that students can justifiably complain about.

Fortunately, several other academic posters were willing to counter this by highlighting that some colleagues, drawing professional salaries, simply refuse to assist with any (rather than some) open days, disingenuously citing that they fall outside their contracted hours; their expectation is that other colleagues must compensate for their uncooperative stance.

The problem for prospective students is that it is very difficult to identify the well run universities, departments, courses or modules. Contrary to some posters' rather insular views, 17 year olds don't 'know' how universities are structured, managed or funded; and why should they? Given the future loan/tax liability incurred, many will look at the facts as they present themselves during the period when they must decide whether to go to university and, if so, which one. Open day experiences form part of that. That is actually perfectly rational and reasonable.

The lengthening of the student debt repayment period for the 2023 cohort onwards means students' critical evaluation of individual universities, departments and courses will only intensify.

Rather than turn on prospective students like the OP's son, academics feeling under justifiable pressure need to focus their frustrations on those in their own administration imposing repeated Saturday open days. Interestingly, this thread prompted me to research approaches to in-person and virtual open days across institutions - these vary enormously; so clearly some institutions understand that they can promote themselves without overburdening staff; others do not. This is where the issue lies; not with the OP or her son or the many. many other young people out there trying to make high stakes 'once in a lifetime' decisions.

[quote littlemisslozza]@MissAngorian so, it'll be ok for your DC's teachers to take their kids in to their own school on term time days that don't match their own then? Distracting their parent and taking the attention away from the class? I imagine there would be many complaints if teachers did such a thing. Same with other professionals. Where you have plenty of notice of events that you need to attend, failing a childcare emergency, you shouldn't just take young children along who can't sit quietly. It is unprofessional and it doesn't look good.[/quote]
It actually wouldn't bother me if a teacher's child was in the classroom. Guess I'm quite laid back about these things. Being a single parent myself helps.

A full-time teacher on a Burgundy Book contract should work 1265 hours per year.
No, that's the 'Directed time', the rest of the sentence then goes on to say something along the lines of 'plus any planning and preparation necessary to get the job done' (a paraphrase rather than a direct quote, but the 1265 only covers teaching and meetings and anything else the HT directs).

Seems no different to a teacher having their toddler with them at parents' evening.
Quite. Something no teacher would do.

So, I think many people failed to understand what happened when universities stopped being "free". Universities were never "free" just like NHS isn't "free"- pre 2000s the government was subsidising the costs directly to the university. Now, the government realised this was costing too much to them, and costs have moved on from the national budget to the student. So now universities have to deal with people who think the university is somehow a business and they are a paying customer. It is not. This change of where the costs are coming from does not make any positive difference to the balance sheet of the university. Only the source of the fees have changed and universities are actually now facing a shortfall in their costs. But in no way this makes you somehow a customer.

This is well explained. Thank you.

Look, there is no need to be so defensive. How can it be acceptable in any public speaking context to have a 4 year-old interrupting you? How can you expect people to absorb your academic arguments with a child talking over you? What am I missing here?

I would agree a child persistently talking over a speaker is never going to be good - but I don't think the odd bit of noise or a couple of interruptions would necessarily be?

It does depend on the context. There are conferences I would never take DD to, ever, because people wouldn't approve, even if it were during the coffee break.

And there are also others where I think it would be fine - these are ones where we pretty much all know each other.

@titchy

Universities aren't businesses - they're charities. Obviously they have income and expenditure which needs to be managed, but so does Oxfam, CRUK, your local kids' football team, girl guides, the Church of England. That doesn't make them businesses

They provide a service for money. A business then....