Lecturer's child at open day for second time

[Igloo71]

I went with DS to our local uni's open day over the summer. The head of department had their child there (with, I assumed, dad helping out in the background - the little girl was running back and forth to a man who seemed to be a parent). She was interrupting throughout the event, but no issues at all, I assumed it was an emergency childcare situation. DS and I laughed about it afterwards and we both had completely forgotten about it until this morning.

He's now at the offer holder event and the child is there again. He's texting me to say it's completely embarrassing as she is talking to them about her department and the child is interrupting constantly, every 5 minutes at least. She is stopping her talk to speak with the child and my DS is just embarrassed on her behalf.

DS is adamant he will never go to this uni now when it had once been his top choice. I'm left wondering if this is the norm at uni's? I've got no idea if DS should be more flexible with his outlook, he's no idea what it's like being a working mum. But equally, she's got possible childcare on site from the uni students.

This isn't a Russell Group uni, but definitely a highly regarded uni and his offer is relatively high (ABB). What do we think?

I asked here to get that counsel - I don't know how uni's work, I said that in my first post. I thought I'd get helpful comments

@Igloo71 I think what has shocked a lot of us academics is your son's knee jerk reaction to write off the university which is one of the best for his subject & was top of his list just because the HoD was distracted by lack of childcare.

If I were you, I'd be probing his reasoning here - because on the face of it, to us adults (not 17 yo boys!) he is being unreasonable to change his mind for such an inconsequential thing, which is easily explained - she's working way over her paid-for hours, and in rare time off, and so on.

I'd be interested to know why this one thing - which is NOTHING to do with the indicators of quality of this university's provision (library, student facilities, support for students struggling, accommodation, teaching rooms & equipment, and all the rest of what makes up an excellent university) - has had such an out of proportion effect on his choice?

Is it actually an excuse? Has he got cold feet about going to university generally?

@CarrieHughes

"30 years ago, when university was free, and only for the academic your statement might have been true. That it fulfilled a deeper purpose. It's not anymore. "

So, I think many people failed to understand what happened when universities stopped being "free". Universities were never "free" just like NHS isn't "free"- pre 2000s the government was subsidising the costs directly to the university. Now, the government realised this was costing too much to them, and costs have moved on from the national budget to the student. So now universities have to deal with people who think the university is somehow a business and they are a paying customer. It is not. This change of where the costs are coming from does not make any positive difference to the balance sheet of the university. Only the source of the fees have changed and universities are actually now facing a shortfall in their costs. But in no way this makes you somehow a customer.

"As an academic you seem frustrated about your pay and working conditions. Fair enough."

I personally love what I do. I would not do it otherwise - it is not a job for me. You will find many academics feel the same.

"But not the administrators running your institution, who underpay you and make you work such long hours on a shoestring budget."

No it is not the administrators, (though there are too many of them) it is the government policies that have resulted in this situation. Most university administration is also made up of academics. Again, this is coming from the thinking that it is run like a business and there must be some HR department taking advantage of academics - mostly this is not the case. Everyone is really doing their best.There simply is not enough funding.

" It is a business and it's delusional to pretend otherwise"
see above.

"You've quietly ignored what I've said about international students as well."

didn't read what you said about international students. But if it is about fees again there is a misconception. The international student fee does not get subsidised by the government hence they have to pay full costs of their education. Suppose costs are 15K. Int. students pays 15K, home student pays 9K and the 6K comes from higher education. In reality, costs are >15K, and shortfall if made by fundraising, grant overheads, additional events etc.

"Is expecting to speak to someone uninterrupted '5 star' service? If so your standards are very low."

We have very high standards in teaching, and research. But most academics are not marketing or salesmen/women. Also most academics do not expect parents/students to have "customer-like" behaviour and if they do, they probably will be disappointed. That HoD is a human being trying to juggle motherhood and academia with parents and students who think they are "buying" some education. Have some empathy please.

Why would a child at an open day affect your son’s education? You’re being completely ridiculous.

I’d find it quite sweet and I think it would make the lecturer seem more human and create a more relaxed atmosphere. If she’d taken her dogs that would have been even better!

I am not sure how else to put this, so apologies for the capitals. YOUR MONEY NEITHER GOES TO THE UNIVERSITY NOR TO THE STAFF. It is simply covering (and mostly failing to cover) costs of your child. Yes universities need students, but not because they are making profit out of them. They need students because they do love students, because the university is there for creation and contribution to knowledge and dissemination of that knowledge. That it their existential purpose.

This doesn't make any sense. Universities are funded by (a) tuition fees (fixed amount per student), (b) OfS recurrent funding, mostly based on funding of high-cost subjects (also a fixed amount per student), (c) grants made under specific programmes for capital spending, etc., (d) research grants. It is very unusual for research grants to cover the full costs of research, regardless of full economic costing measures, and at most large institutions teaching subsidises research, rather than the other way round.

Except for the very small number of institutions with large endowments, universities depend on recruiting students in sufficient numbers to maintain financial viability. Academics' salaries are paid from the university's tuition fee and OfS income, so students' tuition fees absolutely do go to the university and the staff. No students = no university. Insufficient number of students = staff redundancies.

It is not to make money and you are not a customer

This is simply untrue. Universities are businesses and students are customers. You might not like it. Nor do I. But it is indisputably the case. If students choose not to come to my university, I lose my job: same as in any other business that has no customers.

Your son is being a bit weird, I can't imagine any regular 19 year old lad making such a big deal out of this. I'm a single parent, no family able to help - if I had a Monday to Friday job and I helped out with an additional, one off event, it'd be me and my child there or me not there at all.

I had a job which involved occasional evenings and weekends. I knew that when I took the job. Presumably the lecturers knew this too.

The problem is that it's no longer 'occasional'.
It's almost every week on top of what we're contracted to do. That's not what I originally signed up for.

I think it’s a bit dotty to be worried about a little child at an open day.

Our Tutor bought her toddler on a weekend field trip years ago and no one minded.

Not acceptable. I'm a single working parent and when I have to work weekends or overtime for a client I can't bring my child and interrupt the meeting for him.

If not the fault of the dept head, it's bad management, and it doesn't look good. The open day is an advertisement for potential students.

It's a Saturday, perhaps he's a single parent. They do not get extra for attending, in fact they typically work far more hours than their contracts state, certainly no toil

I couldn't get worked up about this

It's two open days, it's not like she'll be bringing the child to lectures

@Igloo71

over £9000 per year, we are not wealthy and I'm a single parent. I want to make sure my DS gets good value for money. Does that make him selfish? I guess it does, but he's a consumer so maybe that gives him a right to?

This attitude sums up so much that is wrong with universities now.

I think any decent uni will be happy enough for your son to go somewhere else, if his view is he is a 'consumer' and that education is a consumer product.

The problem is that it's no longer 'occasional'.
It's almost every week on top of what we're contracted to do. That's not what I originally signed up for.

Blimey! That's unusual. I do every open and offer-holder day at my university and it's about 8 days a year. I do roughly as many days again on outreach activities at weekends but they are part of my specific job; nobody else has to do these. Even with that extra load it's still about one weekend in three.

@grapewines

Every sympathy that you are forced to give up your time for this - truly shocked actually.

I'm not even surprised. Was clearly in academia too long.

Likewise. It didn't surprise me in the slightest. Laughing hollowly at the idea that lecturers just work for their contracted hours, or that they might be paid for any extra.

I resigned because it was so dramatically incompatible with having children.

My DC are at university, OP, all with full loans as I can't afford to supplement them. They are managing ok.

I am glad you have not pursued the idea that a lecturer could just hand their child over to a couple of students for the duration...

@LaChanticleer yes, I can see he’s possibly being hasty. We’re talking it through and about some of the things around uni working conditions. He says he had “second hand embarrassment” - he’s 17 and awkward!

I do hope some of the academics on this thread reflect on their vitriol though. I’ve actually found some of the comments by some people who say they’re lecturers, just shocking and thoughtless. He’s a kid with no experience of what uni involves. I feel sad that some people have posted just to be nasty rather than offer up helpful comments to educate him and me, which ultimately was what I asked for. His careers link at school told us that universities were more flexible and empathetic around working class, first uni goers in the family etc. I’m not currently feeling that.

@Igloo71

He text me, we didn't have a conversation as it was during the event. but despite being accused of mysogeny, he was embarrassed because he could see a woman trying to do her best. He's back now to explain. It made him feel uncomfortable that the talk kind of fell apart because of the child being there and interrupting.

Yeah, yeah, seems a bit of a 180 turn doesn't it? Suddenly he's so understanding of the lecturer 'trying her best'. How come he said he'd not go to this place then according to your first post? Not how I'd react if I saw someone struggling and trying their best.

I suspect you may be lucky that the open day was going ahead on a Saturday. Many university lecturers are currently taking "action short of a strike" and so may not be doing weekend work unless it is in their contract.

Universities aren't businesses - they're charities. Obviously they have income and expenditure which needs to be managed, but so does Oxfam, CRUK, your local kids' football team, girl guides, the Church of England. That doesn't make them businesses

This.

I completely feel for lecturers and researchers on here. The system is unfair and ridiculous but you also have to recognise that students are paying a lot of money for something run in goodwill - it’s not right or fair on anyone.

As mentioned on this thread some universities won’t run like this, they will find another way and the OPs son has every right to choose another institution that at least gives the impression it looks after it’s staff and students.

Ps my exh has taken the kids from time to time to open days - I had work elsewhere and the university asked him to come in unscheduled ... they enjoyed helping with the experiments (primary aged)

My post was meant to quote another, but the site is being stupid. I can’t find it now.

@lanthanum

I suspect you may be lucky that the open day was going ahead on a Saturday. Many university lecturers are currently taking "action short of a strike" and so may not be doing weekend work unless it is in their contract.

Exactly

Could his dad not help with the financial side

I’m with your son on this. I’ve worked FT in HE. Completely get that childcare isn’t easy, but these dates are planned in well in advance and even if there were a last minute breakdown in arrangements, this could have been handled differently. Not doing your utmost to minimise interruptions sounds unprofessional at best, and a bit performative to me. It would make me have doubts.

@Kite22

Where staff are not paid, they are entitled to take a day in lieu. They’re not doing it as volunteers from the goodness of their hearts.

Even if they were 'entitled' to this day, how would you feel about the Lecturer not turning up for the next lecture they were supposed to be giving your child, because they are taking that day in lieu ?

Doesn't really work, does it ?

It doesn’t take Einstein to work out that you take it on a non-teaching day or outside of term now, does it 🙄

@Igloo71

To ensure he has the best chance of succeeding at whichever institution he decides on can I suggest he does research on how universities are run, what it involves. They don't know what background you are from and treat everyone equally. Having a chip on your shoulder about being working class or first in the family really isn't helpful, they are for everyone. I admit some universities are more egalitarian than others, but if you go in thinking you are an equal it is very helpful, many will be first in the family.

If you you want specific advice on how universities are, what to expect etc please do pm me. I went myself, exh is a lecturer and my kids have attended 3 different universities ... I know the system. I was the first in my family, someone has to be Best of luck to him

Ffs, your son is a student not a consumer!
A student paying a minimum of £27k, I would say that makes him a consumer. If you were spending this amount of money would you see yourself as a consumer?

I agree He is paying £27k for a service. I would also be thinking twice about the institution.