Lecturer's child at open day for second time

[Igloo71]

I went with DS to our local uni's open day over the summer. The head of department had their child there (with, I assumed, dad helping out in the background - the little girl was running back and forth to a man who seemed to be a parent). She was interrupting throughout the event, but no issues at all, I assumed it was an emergency childcare situation. DS and I laughed about it afterwards and we both had completely forgotten about it until this morning.

He's now at the offer holder event and the child is there again. He's texting me to say it's completely embarrassing as she is talking to them about her department and the child is interrupting constantly, every 5 minutes at least. She is stopping her talk to speak with the child and my DS is just embarrassed on her behalf.

DS is adamant he will never go to this uni now when it had once been his top choice. I'm left wondering if this is the norm at uni's? I've got no idea if DS should be more flexible with his outlook, he's no idea what it's like being a working mum. But equally, she's got possible childcare on site from the uni students.

This isn't a Russell Group uni, but definitely a highly regarded uni and his offer is relatively high (ABB). What do we think?

A student paying a minimum of £27k

Actually, the way that student loan are structured, it is the taxpayer now who is paying for this, not the student.

When they graduate, they may pay of the loan, but most won't.

Universities are pretty much run on academic staff doing on average around 10 hours a week unpaid overtime - so that's 480 "free" hours per academic.

Your son is right. A one off child care issue can be understood. A repeat issue is a problem. University education is expensive and your son will be paying that loan with interest for a long period of time. It is not a decision to be taken lightly

@Malbecfan

I've taken my DC to work (school) for Parents evenings simply because I had no childcare. We had no relatives anywhere closer than 230 miles away. They had books, snacks, drinks and somewhere to sit. They were around 7 & 5 at the time.

DH was a lecturer, now he only does it very infrequently, thank goodness. He was expected to do Saturdays as the "specialist" in his particular field. That meant I had to look after the DC. He tried to get others to do the Saturdays, but they would inevitably agree then phone early in the morning to say they were "ill". DH would go in, so that people like the OP's DS didn't miss out. I had to look after the DC - heaven forbid I had other plans. He didn't get a penny for any of this, nor did he get TOIL. Teaching is slightly different, but not much. A full-time teacher on a Burgundy Book contract should work 1265 hours per year. All meetings, teaching, duties and parents evenings should come out of this total. People who work P/T should do the proportion of their contract x 1265. I can assure you, I hit my hours around this time of year every year (September - August). It's crap.

As far as money is concerned, yes, it's shit being poor but students can live on the loan as long as they are careful. Both my DDs have managed fine. However, both are good and creative cooks who chose to self-cater (cheaper) and not have en-suite rooms where possible. As someone else has said, they get holidays so they can work and save then. Why not spend the next 6 months helping your DS with budgeting and cooking skills?

If it's the local uni, I would assume that the OP's son could live at home, and save on accommodation fees altogether? If this is the case, and money is tight, that is an extra reason for not impulsively ditching his top choice just because a lecturer brought her child along to a Saturday event.

But child was interrupting, people were openly rolling their eyes etc.

How is people rolling their eyes a reflection on the lecturer?! And how does eye rolling affect anyone else's experience. Stop looking at people's eyes so much.

Probably because they normally work mon-fri and open days are on Saturdays!

@whiteroseredrose

This thread has gone typically Mumsnet bizarre *@Igloo71* .

I would take it as a sign that the department is disorganised and avoid.

I started a distance learning PGCE a few years ago. The whole course came in for our first on-site lectures and nobody was expecting us. They were rushing round trying to find someone to do something with us. It never improved.

I had a job which involved occasional evenings and weekends. I knew that when I took the job. Presumably the lecturers knew this too.

Turning up with a child in tow would have been an absolute no-no.

This too. I've had (over the course of more than one degree)

• Major mistakes made in exam papers. Later an apology email sent out 'sorry exam was too long' and marks adjusted accordingly.
• Students repeatedly missed off email lists.
• Module content not prepared

etc.
It's not just a question of bringing a child in, it's an attitude.
And as shown here some people think students should be grateful for the charity of university.

Also @Malbecfan you sounds quite sensible. Bringing your kids to work etc isn't an issue as long as they don't disrupt anything

I wish the OP's son good luck with his education. A lot of posters sound like they are the ones lacking empathy. My parents didn't get a chance to get a good education - didn't even get the chance to complete high school. Heading off to university I was very nervous and didn't have a clue what to expect. My children who grew up with parents who were occasionally guest lecturers just didn't have that uncertainty. I grew up poor and I chose a degree that was associated with good earning potential and there is nothing wrong with that. All that stuff about university being for exploring life and being exposed to new ideas is all a load of rubbish for most people and, particularly, for working class students. Nothing wrong with being exposed to new ideas about engineering either!

Your son sounds like a very nice young man. To be honest, I would be slightly put off by that Head of Department and her child too because it does show in one sense how that university functions and what is tolerated and how organised they are. I was lucky in that sense when I was that age - there was only one choice I could afford - the local one. The lecturers were not festooned with small children either.

Open days is not a part of my contract either.

"They are paying lots of money, it's not arrogant to expect professionalism."

Im sure you could expect and will swiftly find high levels of professionalism from most academics. But not thinking deeper about the open day situation and expecting 5 star "customer" service is at best ignorance, at worst arrogance.

And universities' treatment of staff is indeed a student problem, because, just like the nhs, unhappy staff make unhappy patients/students, although both sides are doing the best they can. The one difference here is that nhs payment is not a choice and is taken automatically, because everyone gets sick, whereas having a university education is a choice.

Finally this: "Student is paying 30K a year to receive an education. It doesn't matter whether the uni is a profit-making entity, charity, or whatever."

It matters. I am not sure how else to put this, so apologies for the capitals. YOUR MONEY NEITHER GOES TO THE UNIVERSITY NOR TO THE STAFF. It is simply covering (and mostly failing to cover) costs of your child. Yes universities need students, but not because they are making profit out of them. They need students because they do love students, because the university is there for creation and contribution to knowledge and dissemination of that knowledge. That it their existential purpose. It is not to make money and you are not a customer.

Give this woman a break OP

But an open day is not going to be typical of a lecture so it's unreasonable to judge it as so.

Maybe it was meant to be kind of fun and family-friendly? Lecturers and students have had to get used to teaching from home during covid so I think boundaries are more blurred than they used to be. I wouldn't be concerned - the kid is hardly going to interrupt lectures.

Having been in the academic world until 15 years ago and having seen the rampant misogyny I would be thrilled there was a female H O D with a small child. In our department there were no female lecturers and in the larger associated department there were 2 out of 40 - both unmarried and childless. Its marginally better now but not a career conducive to family life, everyone is overworked and underpaid.
I think at 17 noone has any idea how often the odds are stacked against women. That childcare on a Saturday despite being HOD is still often womens' work. A discussion with him on this sort of stuff looking at it from a different angle might be v helpful to him. If he's not comfortable with the Uni then of course choose another.

@Goldenharp thank you for understanding, you completely get where he and I are coming from.

... the university is there for creation and contribution to knowledge and dissemination of that knowledge. That it their existential purpose. It is not to make money and you are not a customer.

👏

@UnshakenNeedsStirring

Your son is right. A one off child care issue can be understood. A repeat issue is a problem. University education is expensive and your son will be paying that loan with interest for a long period of time. It is not a decision to be taken lightly

I agree. Very unprofessional. Doubt this was sprung on her by surprise, it is part of her job. Tough if she doesnt like working Saturdays for free - dont take the job then.

As she has taken the job, sort childcare out!!

@EarringsandLipstick

I think your son's reaction was a bit extreme TBH.

Exactly this.

I can't get my head around your DS having such a strong reaction to this that he'd change his choice of university.

Surely he realises this child won't be there during his usual lectures and seminars or sitting beside him in the Library or wanting to socialise in the SU?

I do agree it's not a great choice by the HoD, but mainly for her,not others. I also work in a university & I'd be distracted & stressed if my kids were with me.

I'm also really taken aback that you didn't realise this was extra unpaid work, just like most of the class planning, pastoral support & admin tasks are. Similar to teachers I guess. Nobody I know minds this, it's part of the job & most of us are really happy to meet prospective students

Yep I agree.

I also can’t believe that you and your son “laughed about it”‘the first time and then his extreme reaction of finding it “deeply embarrassing” the second time and enough to withdraw his place.

Sounds like he needs to learn some empathy tbh.

@Wheyprotcookie

Open days is not a part of my contract either.

"They are paying lots of money, it's not arrogant to expect professionalism."

Im sure you could expect and will swiftly find high levels of professionalism from most academics. But not thinking deeper about the open day situation and expecting 5 star "customer" service is at best ignorance, at worst arrogance.

And universities' treatment of staff is indeed a student problem, because, just like the nhs, unhappy staff make unhappy patients/students, although both sides are doing the best they can. The one difference here is that nhs payment is not a choice and is taken automatically, because everyone gets sick, whereas having a university education is a choice.

Finally this: "Student is paying 30K a year to receive an education. It doesn't matter whether the uni is a profit-making entity, charity, or whatever."

It matters. I am not sure how else to put this, so apologies for the capitals. YOUR MONEY NEITHER GOES TO THE UNIVERSITY NOR TO THE STAFF. It is simply covering (and mostly failing to cover) costs of your child. Yes universities need students, but not because they are making profit out of them. They need students because they do love students, because the university is there for creation and contribution to knowledge and dissemination of that knowledge. That it their existential purpose. It is not to make money and you are not a customer.

Is expecting to speak to someone uninterrupted '5 star' service? If so your standards are very low. As an academic you seem frustrated about your pay and working conditions. Fair enough.

But it's disingenuous to pretend that universities need students because they 'love students'. YOU as an academic maybe. But not the administrators running your institution, who underpay you and make you work such long hours on a shoestring budget. It is a business and it's delusional to pretend otherwise

30 years ago, when university was free, and only for the academic your statement might have been true. That it fulfilled a deeper purpose. It's not anymore. You can learn a lot from free online courses, other people in the industry etc. Knowledge is everywhere for the taking.
The majority of students are there either for the 'experience' or to get a job. Not because they're passionate about their subject. Maybe if you're taking about a prestigious university like Oxford or Cambridge, but not the majority of unis.

You've quietly ignored what I've said about international students as well.

He's not a consumer ffs so quit that attitude. You don't hand over your £9k x 3 and get a degree handed to you at the end. angry.
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He most certainly IS a consumer! He is going to be paying money for a service. And has a choice where to buy that service.

If the lecturer had no choice but to bring the child surely she could have provided something to keep child occupied.

A full-time teacher on a Burgundy Book contract should work 1265 hours per year.

At my place, we are expected to work 1650 hours per year. I generally have scheduled workload (ie not the extra I do anyway) of between 300-400 hours extra, noted on my workload. Then there's the extra time over that ...

Seems no different to a teacher having their toddler with them at parents' evening.
How is the average 18 year old supposed to know the ins and outs of staff contracts at uni?
It give a bad impression, not sure it warrants not choosing that uni but it's surprising what factors help youngsters to decide for or against a place.
My DC1 chose entirely based on the course content and reputation, wasn't remotely interested in the place.
DC2 picked one he had almost rejected as he didn't like the campus but on offer day one academic was so inspiring he picked it.

It could be that there isn't another parent/caregiver available and it may be that if there is they are also an academic and working at the event too. I am married to an academic. We have no local family but I work part time so I accommodate his schedule usually. Field trips and open days are done out of goodwill l, time is not really available to take back. My husband works at a very good university.

Surely he realises this child won't be there during his usual lectures and seminars or sitting beside him in the Library or wanting to socialise in the SU?
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He almost certainly does realise that. But, until you are an actual student, you can only judge the institution by its public face, what you have seen of it. And in this case it's not good

Also we use the university nursery but it's only open standard working hours which causes issues when some lectures are scheduled to finish past 5. No weekend or evening availability and despite saying they are subsidised the nursery is one of the most expensive in our area. It's a huge financial cost to us and another bugbear about the uni expecting staff to go above and beyond but not actually supporting staff (they've also just scrapped spring break which means the only school holidays that my husband can take time off is Christmas and summer and he is doing a summer school and hosting a conference) leaving th childcare burden of school holidays to me and juggling with local friends.