Medicine 2023 Entry

[opoponax]

Hi all,

I don't think there is a Medicine 2023 Entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get one started.

Anyone out there with DC applying or reapplying for Medicine 2023, please join a friendly thread for mutual support and useful advice from those who understand the UK Medical School application process.

@Needmoresleep trouble is nearly all medicine applicants will have AAA grades, with v likely a sprinkling of stars too. Unless they change A levels they can't use these to screen out who they want. PS are a bit of a joke as some students were getting them written by consultants and so the GMC said they should not be used as dud not accurately reflect the applicant.
Not sure if the answer. I hate UCAT as it's all down to the day. Maybe a foundation year as a paid HCA wouldn't be a bad idea and then only the best are taken ?

And the trouble with expecting work experience before applying is the difficulty or ease in getting it. V easy if mum is a consultant, not so easy if mum works in a Tesco. And travel costs are a prohibitive factor too (& the need of many 16 year olds to have a job to help family finances). Maybe an open for all scheme at every hospital would be possible to ensure a level playing field.

@Needmoresleep many schools (including ours) will predict As if you have the tiniest chance of getting them, around 50% of all applicants do not achieve their UCAS predictions. Using A level predictions to shortlist is unfair for people from the many schools which are more rigorous about predictions. UCAT is an ACTUAL result which everyone takes under the same conditions, there should be fewer people disadvantaged by UCAT. Of course some are supported more than others in the preparation. My understanding is that the way most medical schools work these days is:

• UCAT will show whether you have the ability to pass exams


• Interviews will show whether you have the soft skills and the right attitude to be a good doctor who will stay with it.

You are right, Keele really struggled with the number of applicants this year because in their process all had to have their R&R forms assessed, which is a hug job when there were 18 applicants/place for 2022 entry and that is only going to increase as there are so few options left for people with low UCAT. It was like Bristol used to be, still assessing applications in March.

Why MMIs in person were so useful I think. Because they demonstrated lots of those soft skills and couldn't be tutored for. Hopefully they'll be back this year 🤞.

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne it would be really interesting to know how the medical schools feel about whether on line interviews were as effective as face to face. I got the impression that Manchester wants to stick with it post Covid, it must be logistically simpler.

I was surprised at one open day when they said they don't do shift work until F1. Even two or three months at the beginning on the wards plus some clinical and communication skills training might bring the reality of the job more into focus. It would though put the pressure on the wards to have fairly useless people taking up space and time. Sheffield seemed keen to get back to f2f interviews. Plymouth were saying possibly online.

DD has done night shifts already in 4th year. And works all sorts of weird shifts now as depends on when teaching is planned. So some are doing it earlier.

I can see that there are advantages of F2F interviews but I think there are some benefits of online ones too, especially for less economically advantaged DC. It is expensive to travel to interviews/stay over depending on timing and the issue of interview attire is much easier too.

@opoponax but Unis always used to pay for travel and v often accommodation too if needed. Trouble with on line is flaky wifi, old equipment & the fact that some schools have now got experts in to teach how to come across well on a screen (I've nicked some of their ideas but I'm no expert !). It is harder to show the skills that MMIs did on line as you lose that personal connection. Can see it's much easier for Unis though.

I see what you mean @mumsneedwine. Polish can be transferred but the ability to connect at a personal level is pretty much innate and some candidates will have it and some just won't. So important for a doctor and much more accurate to make that judgement in a face to face situation.

DS's interview at Newcastle was 14 minutes on line, seems a crazy way of assessing someone for a whole life training/career interview!

The other advantage of on line is that it means missing fewer lessons for interviews, but I still think F2F is vastly superior.

Phew! Been lively on here this morning. There's a few things I'd like to reply to but don't have time at the moment. I'll reply to the one that was specifically directed at me...

Re effectiveness of face-to-face vs online interviews, I don't think there's really a consensus. However, this is partly to do with different formats of and approaches to interviews. Without giving away any privileged information, I'd say currently about half of medical schools feel face-to-face works so much better that they will make the necessary efforts (and take on the necessary costs) to run them for 2023 entry if they can. The other half feel either that online interviews work just fine or else that the advantage of face-to-face isn't large enough to justify the costs (in staff time, use of space, etc., as well as accounting costs). Also, we do generally feel that having to travel to interviews is a problem for less well-off students, both in terms of expense (only a minority of medical schools reimbursed travel expenses) and of lost school time.

While I'm reluctant to plead poverty on behalf of universities, there is also the issue that income per student is fixed and the value of it decreases every year, especially with inflation rates as they are now. Many universities have had to expand student intakes across all their uncapped courses over the past couple of years to try to stay afloat financially, and this makes finding space to do face-to-face interviews almost impossible for some universities.

I don't know any interviewers who wouldn't prefer face-to-face. (Well, they say that but then they complain bitterly about parking when we ask them to come and interview in person.) In fact, I have a few interviewers who refuse to interview until we revert to face-to-face. Depending on the style of MMI station or equivalent task in other interview formats, I'd say some actually work equally well face-to-face or online, while others work slightly or much less well online. I can't think of any I've seen or done that work better online, although I think my counterparts in some other medical schools would say they do have examples. However, I'm not convinced the face-to-face interviews are so much better that they justify taking students out of school/college for a day (or possibly two, depending on geography) and asking them to pay tens or hundreds of pounds for travel and overnight accommodation.

Because online interviews were forced on us in 2020-21 and many of us hoped to return to face-to-face in 2021-22, I don't think the online interviews were designed as carefully - with regards to being suitable for online use - as we would have wanted. Those medical schools that are continuing with online in 2022-23 will have reviewed the content based on their experience and understanding of how things work online to overcome some of the shortcomings that might have become apparent in what they've done for the past 2 years.

Something I noticed pre-pandemic, and this was confirmed by discussions with teachers in high-achieving schools, was that medicine offer-holders were much, much more likely to drop grades in their A-Levels (especially chemistry) than students with offers for other courses. I'm sure - although I don't have experimental evidence - that this was because of all the distractions, including aptitude tests and interviews. Now, students will still probably be spending more time on interview preparation than they should (that's a separate conversation), but at least they are not potentially losing 4-8 days of schooling to attend interviews if they're online.

And the trouble with expecting work experience before applying is the difficulty or ease in getting it. V easy if mum is a consultant, not so easy if mum works in a Tesco. And travel costs are a prohibitive factor too (& the need of many 16 year olds to have a job to help family finances). Maybe an open for all scheme at every hospital would be possible to ensure a level playing field.

The small number of medical schools that look at work experience pre-interview generally don't expect it to be medical. Some (e.g. Keele) explicitly say they won't give any credit for hospital/GP shadowing, which is the kind of thing that someone whose mum is a consultant would have enhanced access to. Sixteen year-olds who have to have a job to help family finances usually have more to write or talk about in terms of experience than other applicants. I accept, however, that they probably need some guidance on how to write and/or talk about it.

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne I can see some of the logic, but there is always funding for poorer students to access interviews - sometimes I need to ask v v nicely but never been turned down by a Uni WP office.
A lot of my students do not have access to fancy IT devices, so they are not as savvy when using IT - and our school stuff is pretty old and glitchy. Many of their interviews the last two years have been hindered by this (don't even get me started on 2 years of BMAT rubbish). So for them, in person gives them the chance to show who they are. I really hope F2F comes back - we will be advising our students to apply to these Unis where UCAT fits as it will give them a better chance of getting an offer. 16 minute interviews on line are v tough to ace unless you know how to play the game. So hopefully these will no longer exist next year ?
I am surprised that schools find their medics drop grades easier as we find the opposite, especially after they get an offer. Seems to spur them on. But we are not your average medical school cohort 😊.

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne It is v true that all experience counts. But it seems this year that Keele were inundated with applications so could be v choosy.
Not blaming Keele, it must have been a nightmare trying to shortlist as most with a low UCAT applied to them. But standing out is hard if you're up against people who have more help putting together that evidence - I can only do so much as I have to teach too. Admissions people are only human and can only pick the best written applications (they don't know who has had help and who wrote there's on the15th floor of a tower block while sharing a bedroom with siblings). It's never going to be fair, but pre covid I felt that my students at least had a chance when you met them (because they are super awesome 😎 ). Fingers are v tightly crossed for next week that they all make their offers this year as it's been brutal - offers and rejections during A level weeks was far far worse than missing a few days for interviews. I really hope it's nicer from now on !

I sound cross - sorry. It's been a bit of a year. If interviews could be held via TikTok videos then my lot would take every place on offer 😂.

My theory on the high fail rate for Chemistry is that a lot of wannabe medics take Chemistry (and Maths) because they think you have to for medicine, even if they don't have a natural aptitude for it or like it. It is a very hard subject, and for those people it is a grind and very hard to do well in as you have to understand it. In my experience, teaching quality is variable too - there are lots of easier and more lucrative options than teaching for Chemistry graduates.

Most A level subjects are chosen because people like those subjects best, so it is easier for them to do well.

@Monkey2001 as an A level Chemistry teacher I totally agree it's v v hard 😂. Lots do take it because they need it, not because it's their favourite subject and it can be a slog. Ironically both my medic and my vet DDs say biology has been much more useful !

I talk them all out of maths if they don't love it. A level maths is really tough these days. Don't need it so do something they'll get a better grade in.
PE is v popular as well as Art weirdly. Although Psychology probably the most common 3rd.

@mumsneedwine my DS1 loved Chemistry, if he had not studied medicine at university it would have been Chemistry, he really enjoyed the olympiads. He says that at St Andrews he has used loads of Physics and Chemistry and that dropping Biology after AS had no impact on his ability to pick things up as quickly as other students. We have excellent Chemistry teachers too, one of whom is your counterpart as he is also the UCAS coordinator - they always seem to choose science teachers for that role. Other people I know have not been so fortunate with their Chemistry teachers.

@Monkey2001 there is a bit of a shortage of us I'm afraid. So many teachers have to teach out of specialism these days (I also do GCSE physics and I openly admit I'm not as good at it as I'd like to be). And Medic UCAS people do tend to be a level science teachers I've found.
I'm sure my DDs have used their A levels without realising it - DD vet did have to use some statistics this year. She says the best 3rd A level for Vet is business as some of the course is professional studies (in case anyone has a vet child).
Hope everyone's UCAT prep is going well - sorry I've kind of had a mad rant today 🥺

Hey everyone. UCAT day for us here so I’m back to ask for strategic application advice. It didn’t go as well as DD had hoped but she’s hoping she still has a few options…
2570 with band 2 SJT
Predicted AAA for a-levels (Chem, Bio and Psychology) also in the middle of an EPQ
GCSEs:-
RE 9 (taken in Y10)
English Lang 9
English Lit 8
Biology 8
Chemistry 8
German 8
Maths 7
Physics 7
Geography 7
Music 7
French 6
From a non-selective state school, no other WP flags.
She has done an aspiring medic day at our local hospital and has lots of experience volunteering weekly at a local kids group, working with kids with special needs or lately with Ukrainian kids with no English.
If anyone has any thoughts or advice where she could try? Thanks

@DTJ bet she's glad it's over. I've included the 2021 spreadsheet from TSR (I think it's @Monkey2001 s😊). 2022 has been a v weird year so it's hard to judge if next year will be more normal.
I'm not going to lie, it's going to be a bit tough, but there are options. Edge Hill, Liverpool and Plymouth (if they go back to normal). Sunderland and Keele could be possible with good R & R forms. Is she doing BMAT ? Leeds and Brighton might be good options if she does.
Sure others will be along with more advice - I'm just on way home from work but will have a closer look asap.

@DTJ remember, you only need one offer !!!! Just one. She can get that 😊😂

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate all of the advice on here so much. She’s done 4-6 hours a day for the past 4 weeks so in a way she’s glad it’s done and some uncertainty has gone. Frustrating that she has scored a lot higher in some of her mocks, there wasn’t a huge steady improvement from her beginning scores, always a little erratic. BMAT is an option if her UCAT options are very limited? But then should a BMAT just be one of her 4?