Medicine 2023 Entry

[opoponax]

Hi all,

I don't think there is a Medicine 2023 Entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get one started.

Anyone out there with DC applying or reapplying for Medicine 2023, please join a friendly thread for mutual support and useful advice from those who understand the UK Medical School application process.

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor to be clearer, Notts is £100 a week and Bristol £155. That's in a v large 7 bed house in Redlands (student central). 10 minute walk to Uni and 10 minutes to Downs.

In the last year they get £1,000 NHS bursary and £1,900 student loan. Both means tested so these are minimum amounts. That gives a shortfall of £1,500 on the normal minimum student loan, so either bank of mum and dad kicks in or students work during summers and use this.

Yes, this is what we have heard, it isn't her top choice but probably in the mix somewhere. Will they have a whole year somewhere (cheaper) other than Bristol? Just not sure how affordable it will be as there will be overlaps with younger siblings too. Fortunately she doesn't have really expensive tastes but probably would not be keen to share a room.

I am sure she will be willing to work in the summer if she has time, but it is just useful to be prepared.

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor unlikely they'd have a whole year away on placement (@Needmoresleep is more an expert on Bristol medicine). It's a fantastic city with loads to do and not expensive to live. Except the rent 😊. If you live further out it gets cheaper.
If looking at cheaper living costs it is best to head more 'North'. Notts has turned out v cheap (& I'm aware it's not really north, just not South).

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor DD worked as an HCA and earned good money. This was during covid lockdown so be much nicer now.

Ok, so do they have a room in Bristol and then accomodation on placement? Her other choices are further north and cheaper! She would be happy to work as HCA. Just seems a waste to spend an extra 3k per year. I am sure we can find it if we need to.

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor my DD had her house in Notts but is currently living in a placement flat as over an hour way. They tend to go back at weekends as their friends are all there. I think most places work the same (Newcastle has a system where you are placed in a diff area each year I think).

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor How it has worked for my DD in Cardiff regarding placements is that she has a house share in Cardiff, which she pays rent on all the time. In 4th and 5th year they have one "away" placement each year in another part of Wales, and accommodation is provided and paid for by the uni. But they still pay for their Cardiff house. I think it is similar in Bristol, although I think @Needmoresleep has said sometimes you can arrange to have all away placements and then just sleep on someone's sofa for the weeks you need to be back in Bristol. I imagine that's fairly uncommon though.

And don't not apply if she a great UCAT as Bristol is a good choice if score of 2900 or more. Apply to strengths, not just favourites

@Pepermintea same for us. Uni have also paid all petrol costs which has been v helpful. In 5th year the NHS pay !

Fortunately she has over 2900 on ucat and high GCSEs/ predicted grades so she should get an interview. Her other options are safer.

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor 😊😊 . With that UCAT a lot of places can be v safe. Well done !!!!

Does anyone know where we can find out what proportion fail each year? Dd is not wanting somewhere with lots of unnecessary extra pressure (e.g. Kings sounds really disorganised). Medicine sounds hard enough without being at an institution which makes it harder. I also seem to remember something about scores for F1 positions with Hull scoring lower than York. Essentially dd is looking for a friendly, supportive course over 'prestige'.

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor I doubt that info is available. And it wouldn't be that helpful as most places let you retake the exams once, and then retake the year if fail again. Might be worth finding out any that don't allow a year retake ?
I'd suggest going to open days and talking to current students - they'll be honest ! There is no such thing as prestige for F1 positions as they are not based on where you go to Uni (it's all blind and totally on points). So finding a good fit is important and feeling supported. I think you can tell a lot at how they handle applicants so TSR from last year is v v telling 😊.

A friend of a friend had to repeat a whole year when he failed something at Imperial. There definitely are different policies. There is data about progression for some places on whatdotheyknow or you could try the Student Room. Another friends daughter had found Sheffield very helpful when she wanted a year out, she gave the impression that once you were in you were part of the family.

I have a dc considering med school but few years to go though.

I got this in my email the other day...
www.medscape.co.uk/viewarticle/nearly-half-junior-doctors-and-1-3-gps-are-considering-2022a100214v

Nearly half of junior doctors are considering leaving their profession, according to a new Medscape UK survey completed by 1012 UK doctors. Meanwhile, 1 in 3 (36%) GPS and 1 in 4 (25%) specialty doctors are considering leaving medicine to pursue an alternative career. Doctors under 45 were more likely to be considering the change than doctors over 45 (34% versus 27%).

I got this in my email the other day...
www.medscape.co.uk/viewarticle/nearly-half-junior-doctors-and-1-3-gps-are-considering-2022a100214v

You - and your son/daughter - should take it seriously. Our current model of training doctors is very much a matter of pouring a lot of water into a very leaky bucket. Large numbers of junior doctors change career or emigrate within a few years of qualifying. It's similar for paramedics and for nurses (or, at least, for nurses who joined nursing degree courses straight from sixth form), and worse for vets.

Those of us who work in medical schools are endlessly frustrated by the number of students who don't really want to be doctors and have taken places away from people who do. They might want to be what they imagine doctors to be, but not what doctors actually are, or they might be there because their parents and/or schools told them that's what you have to do if you have good A-Level grades. There is a very weird perception among part of British society that if a university course has entry requirements of ABB, it's a waste for someone with AAA to do it. This is utterly insane.

No matter how hard we try to show sixth-formers what being a doctor actually involves, many still apply to medical school assuming eiither that we're lying or that it will have changed for the better by the time they graduate. Some, of course, do understand what they are getting into and have made rational decisions that it's what they want to do. The majority of our medical students are exceptional young people who will make great doctors. But a sizeable minority really shouldn't be there.

If you have a child who is interested in medicine, make sure they find out exactly what being a doctor involves. Both the positives (what they will find rewarding about it) and the negatives. I have often said to colleagues that I think interviews for healthcare professional courses should consist of half an hour of being vomited on, sworn at, blamed for things you have no control over and told you're lazy & greedy by a baying gang of Mumsnetters, Daily Mail readers and Conservative MPs, with one person among the crowd telling you that you are actually doing something truly worthwhile.

yeah, I have already been "accused" of discouraging my dc to go to medical school. Both DH and I are medics...

Those of us who work in medical schools are endlessly frustrated by the number of students who don't really want to be doctors and have taken places away from people who do.

I don't think that the emphasis on the ucat helps with that either, although TAGs might have broadened the pool of candidates. Hopefully early patient contact helps a little. Dd is bemused by her peers who are keen on the traditional degree structures so they can delay seeing patients. Although she does realise that a medical student in week 3 has very little to offer in terms of skills/ knowledge.

I agree. DD got interested in medicine mainly through sport. She is dyslexic and initially considered physio or PE till at 15 it became clear she was a natural scientist and medicine was a possibility.

She did lots of work experience. Working in a care home during the summer before A levels (first as a volunteer then paid), helping at PHAB a residential summer camp (something she still does), volunteering at a swim session for disabled swimmers at our local leisure centre, and more. It would not help with an application now, but it did mean that she knew that she was comfortable in a care environment.

She is coming into her final year. Because of the increasing emphasis on UCAT she would not even be interviewed by the two places who made her offers previously. Observationally it seems that UCAT rewards those whose forte is individual study, rather than practical teamwork. She now faces a similar issue when applying for F1/F2. A huge emphasis is placed on a Situational Judgement paper. DD would be more than fine if she were able to gain points for her performance during placements, but this will count for nothing. Instead her future training and career will rest on how she does on a timed written test. Those that do well will be practicing already. Will these be the better doctors? The NHS clearly think so.

DD is happy to stay in medicine, or perhaps if she can't get the training she wants, in medical research. She has plenty of school friends making careers in law, finance, and tech but does not envy them. There is a bigger question about whether to stay in the UK, where hands on doctors who like practice and patients do not seem to be valued.

@Needmoresleep all that work experience is still valuable in an applicant at interview, UCAT is only being used more to narrow the field and ensure that applicants have the academic ability to get through medical school exams.

Faced with over 2,000 applicants for a few hundred places, I think using an objective measure like UCAT may be the only practical way to shortlist for interviews. We all know that PS is much easier for people with schools and parents who can support them, but there will be people in any system who lose out. Keele, Sunderland and Cardiff are still good with a weak UCAT.

I think a year as an HCA should be a requirement for all medical students - they could apply in their HCA year, that would put off sooner of the ones which drop out later. Whether hospitals would want all of them may be another matter!

Monkey, I realise we have grade inflation but surely A levels should suggest who has sufficient academic ability. I am not convinced UCAT is 100% objective. I remember reading some Cambridge U analysis on the various aptitude tests they used and only STEP had a significant degree of correlation.

(FWIW DD is academic and was taking 5 STEM A levels with strong grade predictions, but with abnormally slow processing speeds. Unlike some of her peers, the academic side of medical school has never been an issue.)

And yes there are still a small number of medical schools that don’t depend heavily on UCAT to screen for interview, and you need to get to interview before you can talk about work experience. However, like Bristol previously, their applicant numbers are likely to be huge. (Bristol, before it switched to UCAT, had 17 applicants per place.)

And isn’t that the problem. UCAT may predict something, but does that something correlate with being a good doctor. Is it really selecting those with the resilience and vocation to cope with bodily fluids, bad behaviour and NHS bureaucracy.

I agree that my DDs experience as an HCA has shaped her as a doctor. She did one summer in a care home to earn money to travel. When covid destroyed that she became an HCA in a hospital during the first horrific covid wave. Words don't even begin to cover what she saw and did.
Now as a 5th year she is v pragmatic about the state of the NHS and where junior doctors fit in. Several of her F1 friends were the only doctor on their ward last Wednesday - their first day on the job. Utterly terrifying. She knows it's a mess and the job is a lot of paperwork. She's not sure when or if she'll specialise and plans on doing so many foundation years to travel and also earn lots more money as a locum than she can do as an ST. This might change.
Students do need to know what they are getting into and that being a doctor is not glamorous or easy. Saying that, DD still loves it (so far).