DD wants a RG Uni that does F2F teaching - which will?

[mugglewump]

My DD is in the process of choosing which universities to apply for and wants Russell Group. After hearing Manchester say that blended learning will continue indefinitely, she has decided that F2F learning is (unsurprisingly) important to her. She is interested in Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle, Nottingham, Bristol, Kings, Cardiff and Southampton and would like to know which of these have declared an intention to return to face to face learning for 2022. If you have a DD or DS at any of these and know the uni's intention in terms of course delivery, can you share it please? She wants to study geography. TIA.

@fourminutestosavetheworld

"I will people would stop putting words into our mouths and actually read what we're saying."

I am reading what you are all saying, but hearing different things on other threads, other forums, sm. DD's university is just saying 'blended learning' at the moment and it's unnerving, the lack of clarity. It's been an awful year for first years and none of us want even the shadow of it being like that again.

And, speaking only for myself, I do feel angry about lots of other things too. This is a RG university, competitive course, very aspirational for dd but she made her offer - only to have the accommodation she accepted months ago withdrawn.

You cannot reach anyone on the phone - it rings out. The live chat is available sometimes with very long waits and then you are often cut off. Emails are ignored after receiving a standard reply saying 'we'll reply within 5 working days.'

The stock response is 'everyone is now working from home.' Why? The rest of the country is back at work. Fair enough if you can maintain a fraction of your usual service but you can't.

We've paid accommodation, cleaning and catering included, and used none of it.

Threads like this one where academics say 'they won't be isolated because clubs and socials are running again' without any understanding that some kids don't want clubs and socials.

I don't doubt that Uni staff, like the rest of the non-furloughed country, have worked hard and been forced to adapt to the changing landscape but my goodness from the perspective of a parent it has been sub-standard and shit. You say things aren't like that where you work but I know dozens of parents with kids at a wide range of unis and they all feel the same. Not your fault maybe but when we come on here to vent and worry and hope that this year will be better, please don't dismiss us or make out like we're making stuff up.

This!

By all means offer tutorials via Teams and recordings of lectures for those who want them. I was a commuter student myself and those things would have been very helpful and saved many unnecessary journeys and lots of my time. They should be a useful adjustment not the default position imo.

Most universities have recorded lectures for years. They're useful but should not be used as a replacement just a back up. Any online content I deliver has been specifically designed to be delivered online.
Online tutorials are great and I know that feedback across the sector is very positive about these. I imagine most universities are planning on keeping these online with students able to request f2f if the want.

To me, it feels as if, when pushing for changes to the way teaching is delivered, the main priority is the university itself however it is dressed up as 'thinking of the children'. If you were telling us that there would be online options for those who wanted them, who could possibly argue with that? Instead we are told about marvellous new better ways of working that you are certain everyone prefers, but this thread alone is testament to the fact that they don't all prefer it actually.

The problem with threads like this is that it's rare for those who are happy about the situation to comment. It inevitably become place to moan and complain. Which is fine! However, it means as soon as an academic comments and explains how it working at their university and why certain decisions have been made we get called liars.

Nobody has said that everyone prefers online but according to this thread nobody wants or likes any online content and all online content is of poor quality. I have simply pointed out that some students like (and have) requested a blinded approach and that some of us are quite good a designing and delivering online teaching.

Lecturers might prefer to deliver a lecture without a fidgety audience slowing things down by asking questions, or to conduct tutorials from home via Zoom, but that isn't necessarily what the fee-paying student wants.

Again, you're making assumptions. Where has anyone said we don't want student interaction? We haven't.

But by the same token they are not more important either.

They're as important.

It's the only thing that counts to students who are moving away to university and their parents yes. That's our area of expertise. It's just not true to say that the only reason students are unhappy about online teaching is because they are uniformed. By all means offer choice but keep face to face teaching please. If you work in a city university where lots of people commute then you have a particular area of expertise which may not be relevant to parents here unhappy with what their university is offering for their child. That's what I meant by you being disengenous

I'm not being disingenuous. You're conflating two separate issues.

I've talked about my course just to explain that yours (and others) opinion that not one student wants any online content is incorrect. I've also explained that my course is quite niche and my approach by no means works for other courses. You seem to ignore the fact that I've made that point a few times!

However, I do understand the world of student recruitment and I know that most 18 year old UG students want to be on campus and can see no reason why this won't be happening.... other than another lockdown. Those universities that are offering some online content to UGs are likely to be doing 1:1 tutorials and large lectures online which are a very, very small part of the teaching and learning experience. It will not mean students are locked in their rooms and will still mean a significant amount of on campus interaction. Serious questions will be asked of universities who are keeping students off campus for no good reason.

I agree that it is disgraceful that some universities aren't being transparent or honest and would encourage people to complain. I'm happy to offer advice on this too.

My issues with threads like these are the declarations that no students like or want online content, that all online content is of poor quality and that academics are pushing to deliver everything online be use we're lazy and don't want to back onto campus. None of which is true.

"not one student wants any online content is incorrect."

Did any poster actually say that? Those exact words?

I never said that. I think what most parents are objecting to is predominately online. I want my ds's to go to lectures, I want f2f, I want them mixing. A small amount of online is of course fine with me.

My issues with threads like these are the declarations that no students like or want online content

No students going to live at university want ONLY online content. Yes lectures live AND online.

You are being really weird about this, it's blatantly obvious what people are saying. Fine, some students who commute want online content so they can stay at home, we get that. But that's what 20% of ALL students? The students uprooting their lives and paying thousands to go and live at university, presuming thst they'll meet people on their course and be able to discuss what they are learning seem to mean nothing to you.

@Oblomov21

"not one student wants any online content is incorrect."

Did any poster actually say that? Those exact words?

I never said that. I think what most parents are objecting to is predominately online. I want my ds's to go to lectures, I want f2f, I want them mixing. A small amount of online is of course fine with me.

That's what the vast majority of universities will be doing. My DHs university has made it clear there will be NO online content.

I really think people will be pleasantly surprised this year.

@SkinnyMirror the thing is that the posters on these threads have dc at a wide range of universities, it’s not just one random poster or one random university . So when academics come on and dismiss their experiences as ‘not happening’ , ‘exaggerated’ not ‘my experiences ‘ it’s frustrating because quite frankly it is happening in many places.

I bet everyone on the thread is agreed that having a bit of online content is fine. Eg my son before the pandemic liked the 99% of lecturers who pushed the record button when starting to speak so either he did not need to turn up or he could listen to it later. However he often also went to the lectures, met his friends there and 5 days a week for most of his time by the way was in the physical library until the pandemic shut the library. So for him university before pandemic was going to lectures, meeting friends, and going into a physical library you did not have to book and course did not need to wear a mask.

Some students last year were not given enough detail before they formed binding contracts with the universities to make an informed judgment as is probably required by consumer law as to what they would get for their £9250 and before they expended £7k in rent. Eg my son had 100% online lectures last year (post grad) and I paid the fees for that course plus his rent of over £7k when his course ended up being 100% online.

He starts his new course on 6 Sept and we do not yet know if it will be face to face. He was asked to complete a survey and I think his and his twin will have the choice of face to face as they indicated they wanted the 2 long days a week of sessions face to face in physical person but with 2 weeks to go and my having paid both twins' post grad fees last month (about £33k out of earned income on which lots of tax has already been paid so a very large sum for me) we still do not have certainty of if it will be 100% online only or not. Hopefully we will find out this week.

No students going to live at university want ONLY online content. Yes lectures live AND online.

But as I've said, NO university is going offer only online so it's all good!

You are being really weird about this, it's blatantly obvious what people are saying. Fine, some students who commute want online content so they can stay at home, we get that. But that's what 20% of ALL students? The students uprooting their lives and paying thousands to go and live at university, presuming thst they'll meet people on their course and be able to discuss what they are learning seem to mean nothing to you.

Are you reading what I'm saying?? I agree with you! I've literally just said all of this.

If I'm coming across as defensive it's because I've spent the last 18 months being called all the names under the sun just because I'm an academic. I've tried to help on threads and tried to explain why things might be happening in a certain way but all I get is abuse. It's pretty sad really.

[quote Peaseblossum22]@SkinnyMirror the thing is that the posters on these threads have dc at a wide range of universities, it’s not just one random poster or one random university . So when academics come on and dismiss their experiences as ‘not happening’ , ‘exaggerated’ not ‘my experiences ‘ it’s frustrating because quite frankly it is happening in many places.[/quote]
I've not done that.
I know that some students had a poor experience last year and I offered help and advice at the time. I find it very frustrating too as it gives the good academics a bad name.

However, if I dare to say there have been some positive experiences I get called a liar.

In all honesty, I have to say that I am frustrated by my institution’s plans for next year. Social distancing is to remain but f2f is to be maximised and there must be a “virtual” alternative prepared for every activity: lectures, seminars, labs, and tutorials etc.

With social distancing still in place, it will be impossible to reinstate the level of f2f teaching to anywhere near pre-Covid levels. There isn’t enough time or space.

@SkinnyMirror

No students going to live at university want ONLY online content. Yes lectures live AND online.

But as I've said, NO university is going offer only online so it's all good!

You are being really weird about this, it's blatantly obvious what people are saying. Fine, some students who commute want online content so they can stay at home, we get that. But that's what 20% of ALL students? The students uprooting their lives and paying thousands to go and live at university, presuming thst they'll meet people on their course and be able to discuss what they are learning seem to mean nothing to you.

Are you reading what I'm saying?? I agree with you! I've literally just said all of this.

If I'm coming across as defensive it's because I've spent the last 18 months being called all the names under the sun just because I'm an academic. I've tried to help on threads and tried to explain why things might be happening in a certain way but all I get is abuse. It's pretty sad really.

I'm sorry about that. You do come across as rather arrogant and although you clealry have a lot of experience you seem to dismiss concerns by telling people they just don't understand it This puts people's backs up.

Have you really hand on heart tried to reassure parents of students who don't commute and live at uni that universities are trying to go back to f2f?

@Etulosba

In all honesty, I have to say that I am frustrated by my institution’s plans for next year. Social distancing is to remain but f2f is to be maximised and there must be a “virtual” alternative prepared for every activity: lectures, seminars, labs, and tutorials etc.

With social distancing still in place, it will be impossible to reinstate the level of f2f teaching to anywhere near pre-Covid levels. There isn’t enough time or space.

As an academic I'm really not understanding why there are such different plans. My university has confirmed again, no social distancing, lectures of 400 are fine even. It's not that we have tons of huge ventilated rooms or anything.

The only thing I can think is that we do have a fairly robust online learning capability, so if this approach means cases explode and we have to switch over, they feel confident we can do so.

I'm sorry about that.You do come across as rather arrogant and although you clealry have a lot of experience you seem to dismiss concerns by telling people they just don't understand it
This puts people's backs up.

I don't mean to come across as arrogant so I apologise. It's a defence mechanism.... 18 months of being told I'm lazy, a liar ( I was teaching on campus between September and December last year but got told I was making that up!), deserve to be sacked as well as some pretty unpleasant names just because I'm an academic has taken its toll.
I'm not dismissing concerns I'm just trying to offer an explanation from the perspective of someone who is on the other side.

Have you really hand on heart tried to reassure parents of students who don't commute and live at uni that universities are trying to go back to f2f?

Of course! It's really important that anyone going to university is making an informed decision. To do this you need as much information as possible.
It's important that universities are transparent and honest and those that aren't really infuriate me.
Im happy to signpost to impartial advice and guidance if anyone needs it.

OK fair enough @SkinnyMirror I'll stop being so defensive.

We are capped at 50 for the largest lecture theatres. For one of my modules that would mean delivering the same lecture three times every week. So, twelve in total. That also assumes that that many slots are going to be free when I need them. Unlikely, given the competition for space.

As I said earlier, we have to have an online alternative prepared for everything we do.

Extending the teaching day from 7 until 9 might help, but unlikely to be very popular.

@Etulosba

We are capped at 50 for the largest lecture theatres. For one of my modules that would mean delivering the same lecture three times every week. So, twelve in total. That also assumes that that many slots are going to be free when I need them. Unlikely, given the competition for space.

As I said earlier, we have to have an online alternative prepared for everything we do.

Extending the teaching day from 7 until 9 might help, but unlikely to be very popular.

Can I ask why capped when restrictions elsewhere are lifted?

Why are you capped when no social distancing needed? Surely an easy restriction to lift

Sorry @Newgirls i repeated your post

@Etulosba, do you mean that seminars as well as institutions at your institution are going to be online, or that they're going to be physical/f2f but that you have to do an online version as well?

Is the social distancing at your uni going to be imposed on students in non-academic settings on campus too, like in student union buildings etc?

@Bryonyshcmyony

Sorry *@Newgirls* i repeated your post

That’s ok!

"Online tutorials are great and I know that feedback across the sector is very positive about these. I imagine most universities are planning on keeping these online with students able to request f2f if the want."

I disagree with this. DD has had these all year of course. She's logged on, participated in the discussion, and logged off, sometimes from her room on campus and sometimes from our living room at home.

She didn't build any relationships or friendships with the other students. She didn't have anything to compare it to, so probably wouldn't complain about it, but where is the opportunity to chat about it all informally afterwards, to confide in someone that you didn't really get something? Even the opportunity to linger at the end to ask a question you didn't want to ask in front of everyone else is denied.

It suits those who want to zoom in without leaving their room, the ones who maybe wouldn't have made it in in person at all, the ones who have made lots of friends elsewhere. For those who need those points of contact to build relationships, it is a bit rubbish. And nobody is going to be the one to complain and admit that they want to meet people in person because they don't do enough of it otherwise, or risk irritating the other participants who want to zoom from bed.

Obviously, I'm assuming small group tutorials here. If it's 1:1 then f2f or zoom by arrangement is fine.

I don't mean to be belligerent about this. I appreciate those of you who are taking the time to explain how things are working in your universities. It's just that our university has now taken a signed contract for another year of accommodation while still making comments about 'blended learning' without really explaining what that will look like. No other sector is able to do this - take money without saying what's on offer.

And at least some of the explanations and justifications on here don't ring true at all - sure, it has worked for some students, not all. But if it works for the Uni then the positive experiences of those who liked it - or those who didn't actively object to it - are being exaggerated imo. Just offer it as a choice - everyone is happy.

Online tutorials are great and I know that feedback across the sector is very positive about these

You see, this is a massive disconnect. I know literally noone who wants these.

@fourminutestosavetheworld Have you contacted your department specifically to ask what blended learning will mean? Part of the reason university statements are so vague is because different departments will do blended learning differently. Your department should at this point be able to explain what's happening, I would keep emailing them for more information.