DD wants a RG Uni that does F2F teaching - which will?

[mugglewump]

My DD is in the process of choosing which universities to apply for and wants Russell Group. After hearing Manchester say that blended learning will continue indefinitely, she has decided that F2F learning is (unsurprisingly) important to her. She is interested in Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle, Nottingham, Bristol, Kings, Cardiff and Southampton and would like to know which of these have declared an intention to return to face to face learning for 2022. If you have a DD or DS at any of these and know the uni's intention in terms of course delivery, can you share it please? She wants to study geography. TIA.

@IcedPurple

The rationale by the universities for socially distanced, face-to-face teaching for small groups and on-line lectures for large groups is that either they 1) provide an environment where some people are entirely excluded from accessing the service they have paid for and everyone has to accept both a greater risk to access this service and that this service may have to be withdrawn with no notice at all in the event of rapid spread of Covid amongst students and teaching staff, or 2) they provide access for everyone, with lower risk, but this means that some of the time some of the service is not delivered in the way some students would prefer.

If that is indeed the 'rationale', has it been made clear to students and their parents?

Since, as you say, they are essentially 'customers' paying a lot of money for the services, they have a right to know the 'rationale' behind decisions which will affect them, surely?

My student hasn’t been asked about any of this! She had a survey back in Feb which was very limited. The uni hasn’t asked her views since. First years won’t have been asked either.

I’d be amazed if students expect or require social distancing in a library. Most have been going out, sitting next to friends in cafes, bars etc.

The unis do seem to be very out of step with the rest of the UK which is increasingly baffling

My student hasn’t been asked about any of this! She had a survey back in Feb which was very limited. The uni hasn’t asked her views since. First years won’t have been asked either.

That's the thing. I can see the logic to the above 'rationale'. I don't neccessarily agree with it, but it's a valid argument.

What I don't get is how you can say that students are 'customers' paying big money for a service, and yet not communicate this 'rationale' to them. It has massive effects on the quality of their experience after all. Instead they mostly seem to be faffing about with vague language about 'blended learning' and fobbing off more specific enquiries. Even allowing for the fact that the situation is obviously fluid and unpredictable, students have a right to know the 'rationale' by which their experience will be decided, don't they?

@IcedPurple

My student hasn’t been asked about any of this! She had a survey back in Feb which was very limited. The uni hasn’t asked her views since. First years won’t have been asked either.

That's the thing. I can see the logic to the above 'rationale'. I don't neccessarily agree with it, but it's a valid argument.

What I don't get is how you can say that students are 'customers' paying big money for a service, and yet not communicate this 'rationale' to them. It has massive effects on the quality of their experience after all. Instead they mostly seem to be faffing about with vague language about 'blended learning' and fobbing off more specific enquiries. Even allowing for the fact that the situation is obviously fluid and unpredictable, students have a right to know the 'rationale' by which their experience will be decided, don't they?

Universities should be doing this. If you are making significant changes to a course this must be communicated to existing students as well as applicants. It's linked to policies and procedures around CMA.

I had to go through this process recently. If your universities aren't doing this then you should absolutely raise it as an issue.

I had to go through this process recently. If your universities aren't doing this then you should absolutely raise it as an issue.

This thread makes it clear that many people have been doing just this, repeatedly, only to be met with a brick wall of 'thank you for your enquiry', 'blended learning' 'we will respond to your request within 5 working days' and so on and so forth.

It's highly disrespectful. If students were 'customers' paying thousands for any other service, this would not be accepted. Nor should it be.

@IcedPurple

I had to go through this process recently. If your universities aren't doing this then you should absolutely raise it as an issue.

This thread makes it clear that many people have been doing just this, repeatedly, only to be met with a brick wall of 'thank you for your enquiry', 'blended learning' 'we will respond to your request within 5 working days' and so on and so forth.

It's highly disrespectful. If students were 'customers' paying thousands for any other service, this would not be accepted. Nor should it be.

I agree. It isn't acceptable.

My student has asked too. I read the reply and it was so standard and vague. I think the uni spends quite a lot on lawyers and keeping student complaints very much at arms length

I agree there is a real 'fobbing off' culture in universities these days -- we feel it too as staff! You can't call anyone anymore or drop into an office so we also get the vague emails and no follow up.

I had a couple of serious payroll issues this year, it took about 6 months and endless emails to sort out.

This is why I always encourage people to email widely to get more information. Try to email a person directly, not a generic email for a programme or department -- email your Head of Department, a deputy head, or the programme director, etc. (You should be able to get their emails from the department website)

Say upfront why you are emailing them. 'I have written to [main email account] several times in the last month but I have not received any response to my query. I would be grateful if you could answer my questions, or direct me to someone who can advise, or let me know when the department might be able to provide more information'.

It's really not acceptable to just ignore students all the time. Even if we don't have definite answers, we should still be communicating with them.

My twins' institution did ask them about a month ago if they wanted to move to purely online (they said no ) but everyone has a choice over that and that place has run a purely online course for years anyway . They were also asked if they wanted to do 2 days a week (long day) or 4 short half days. So there has been consultation in their case although what the result is presumably will be made clear in the next week or so before they start.

The twins' place requires students to log in and fill out a form if they have queries rather than emails I think so a bit complex.

@dreamingbohemian

I agree there is a real 'fobbing off' culture in universities these days -- we feel it too as staff! You can't call anyone anymore or drop into an office so we also get the vague emails and no follow up.

I had a couple of serious payroll issues this year, it took about 6 months and endless emails to sort out.

This is why I always encourage people to email widely to get more information. Try to email a person directly, not a generic email for a programme or department -- email your Head of Department, a deputy head, or the programme director, etc. (You should be able to get their emails from the department website)

Say upfront why you are emailing them. 'I have written to [main email account] several times in the last month but I have not received any response to my query. I would be grateful if you could answer my questions, or direct me to someone who can advise, or let me know when the department might be able to provide more information'.

It's really not acceptable to just ignore students all the time. Even if we don't have definite answers, we should still be communicating with them.

Thank you that’s very helpful

There is a lot of 'noise' around students needing to take more responsibility for their learning, be more adult etc so it does seem disappointing that when they do exactly this by asking questions they get treated as children and fobbed off. Universities cannot have it both ways

@SkinnyMirror

I’m a commuter student. I chose my institution specifically because I could commute to it. Because I didn’t want to learn online or remotely or with occasional face to face seminars. I rejected OU for this reason and several highly prestigious institutions and courses, instead opting for my local uni. This massively restricted my choices. And I was ok with that - it meant I could get in person learning which is a style that suits me best.

So if my university does not revert to 100% in person teaching this year, I will make a formal complaint. Because it’s what I applied for, and it’s what I want. I honestly don’t care if in theory it’s more effective online for most people. A face to face course was what I was sold, and - now we are mostly double vaccinated- that’s what I expect to get.

And that is absolutely your prerogative.
If they are making any major changes to your course they should write to you ( probably via email) to ask you to confirm you are happy with the proposed changes.

Indeed.

But it does highlight your disingenuous claim that universities are doing more online content because commuter students like it. I’m a commuter student and I don’t. As per my pp, commuter students select a university they can travel to easily so have already considered and rejected those that they can only access remotely or occasionally.

I am happy to travel for a tutorial, even a short one. It’s no bother. It gets me on campus. I visit the library while I’m there. I hate online tutorials.

Retaining online access as a main delivery means of education is not doing students any favours. And it’s not what we signed up for. If universities want to pivot to more online degrees, these should be offered to new applicants, not forced onto existing students based on theoretical benefits.

Edin said recently that students ‘must’ be on campus. I’m not sure how any uni can now say this? Surely it is up to students to choose how they attend now, especially if not being taught every day on campus. Some will want to of course but others may prefer to commute or room share or whatever

But it does highlight your disingenuous claim that universities are doing more online content because commuter students like it. I’m a commuter student and I don’t. As per my pp, commuter students select a university they can travel to easily so have already considered and rejected those that they can only access remotely or occasionally.

I never said all commuter students. I would never be so presumptuous to speak on behalf of all students. However, in my research, for the courses I run students have specifically stated that they like some online content as it saves them travelling to campus. This is why I have kept some online content. However, I have said numerous times that it doesn't work for all students, courses or universities.

I am happy to travel for a tutorial, even a short one. It’s no bother. It gets me on campus. I visit the library while I’m there. I hate online tutorials.

While that works for you I'm sure you can understand that others may not feel the same. While my default will be to offer 1:1 tutorials online I will make it clear that students can request for these to takes place on campus if that works better for them.

Retaining online access as a main delivery means of education is not doing students any favours.

It's a good job that not what's happening then isn't it 🤷🏼‍♀️

And it’s not what we signed up for. If universities want to pivot to more online degrees, these should be offered to new applicants, not forced onto existing students based on theoretical benefits.

As I've already said, as part of CMA regulations students should be informed of any major changes to their programme and can object.

Edin said recently that students ‘must’ be on campus. I’m not sure how any uni can now say this? Surely it is up to students to choose how they attend now, especially if not being taught every day on campus. Some will want to of course but others may prefer to commute or room share or whatever

We have said the same. It doesn’t mean that they have to be there every day from 9 until 7, just when they have timetabled teaching sessions.

Interestingly, we have a “significant” number of students who have indicated that that they would prefer term 1 teaching to be wholly online. They are mainly from overseas.

@Newgirls

Edin said recently that students ‘must’ be on campus. I’m not sure how any uni can now say this? Surely it is up to students to choose how they attend now, especially if not being taught every day on campus. Some will want to of course but others may prefer to commute or room share or whatever

Of course they can say this!

There are excusively online unis, but Edinburgh is not one of them. It's not a 'pick 'n' mix' sort of thing where every individual student - out of thousands - gets to decide how and where they'd prefer to do a class. That would be chaos. If a student doesn't want to be on campus, it's a bit silly to choose an on campus uni.

But a uni can’t demand this? The wording was they expect students to be in Edinburgh. Surely they can just commute for their 2-3 days.

I think it’s a wording thing. More students will commute, as many do. Unis need to update their offering/wording on the emails they send out.

@Newgirls

But a uni can’t demand this? The wording was they expect students to be in Edinburgh. Surely they can just commute for their 2-3 days.

I think it’s a wording thing. More students will commute, as many do. Unis need to update their offering/wording on the emails they send out.

Are you sure the uni said that students had to reside within Edinburgh city limits? I find this hard to believe. Since when have unis controlled their students' place of residence?

My guess is they said students will be expected to be on campus at least some of the time and so will need to be within commuting distance. Can you quote where they said that students need to live in Edinburgh?

From their website…

Based on the information available to us just now we expect that:

you will be with us in Edinburgh

However if you signed up for Edinburgh expecting 9 hours per week contact hours on campus but in reality it will be 1 hour per week this semester, surely they won't be able to refuse permission to study off campus on economic grounds particularly as they are providing fully online for international students prevented from travelling. DD knows some third years who have requested this.

To be fair to Edinburgh they have been good in specifying how each module will be delivered this year and appear to be doing more on campus for second years (at least in my DDs subject).

@Etulosba

From their website…

Based on the information available to us just now we expect that:

you will be with us in Edinburgh

Yes.

"With us" in the sense of being present on campus on required.

Whether the student lives in uni accommodation 2 minutes from the classroom or arrives by air balloon every morning is not mentioned. They only care that you are present on campus when neccessary.

I'm struggling to see the issue here.

Commuting is allowed. DDs tutor emailed her as home is just over 30 miles from Edinburgh but commute by public transport would be 2h door to door.

Same here. It’s no different to pre-covid.

We are allowing some students to do term 1 remotely if they can show good reason to do so. The rest will be expected to be present on campus when timetabled to do so. Where they spend their time outside those slots is up to them.

For me issue is spending £600 per month in rent for 1h per week course contact on campus in semester 1.

Interestingly, we have a “significant” number of students who have indicated that that they would prefer term 1 teaching to be wholly online. They are mainly from overseas
.
I would suggest that this has very little to do with a preference for online learning per se and more to do with external factors such as quarantine costs, health insurance costs, not wanting to be away from relatives at this time, worries about getting stranded etc