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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Universities deciding whether to continue online this year (updates?)

291 replies

dreamingbohemian · 06/08/2021 15:02

I've been on a few threads this year about whether universities will fully return to face to face learning this year or stay partly online.

My university told staff today that actually all teaching will be back to normal this year. Previously we had thought to keep large lectures online but now they have ditched that to go fully back to normal.

(Apologies for not outing myself by saying which university but it's a large London uni)

Just thought it might be helpful for people/parents to know that these decisions are getting firmed up now, so contact your university if you haven't heard anything yet -- and also just some optimism that maybe universities will be more f2f than expected this year.

OP posts:
somewhereovertherain · 10/08/2021 08:51
Fees is a red herring as only 20% of students every pay back in full.

Gavin Williamson should be sacked from his handling of the exams joke.

ClerkMaxwell · 10/08/2021 09:03

Agree about the poor quality of some of the online delivery. DDs uni were criticised for being vague about the extent of f2f last year which for DD was 8 hours in total over the entire year (tutorial with 20 people). This year they've published details by module. If DD had remained on original course she signed up for it would be around 45% face to face for Semester 1. Semester 2 not confirmed. She's decided to switch to one of her outside subjects which will be around 80% face to face (less popular particularly with international students). Social science so contact time low anyway (9 hours per week maximum).

damekindness · 10/08/2021 09:37

Just to reiterate what @GCAcademic has said - the academics who are delivering the actual teaching have absolutely no input into decisions about where and how we teach. Essential a senior management team tell me what I have to to do, when and where and I have to deliver that in the best way I'm able given the resources they provide me with.

Etulosba · 10/08/2021 10:00

So why are lecturers so terrified and why are they not vaccinated?

Lecturers aren’t “terrified” and most are likely to have been double jabbed.

However, lecturers don’t generally make university policy.

Kazzyhoward · 10/08/2021 10:27

@somewhereovertherain Fees is a red herring as only 20% of students every pay back in full.

No, that twisted statistic is the red herring.

It includes people who've paid "nearly" all the loan. It includes people who've paid all the "loan advances" but not paid all the interest that's been accruing at a stupidly high percentage rate.

Consider this. If we double tuition fees, then the statistic would fall to, say, 10%. By using your logic, that would be a good result as fewer people paid it off. But in reality, it means that lots of people have had to pay a lot more.

Conversely, if we halved fees, then the number paying off in full could rise, to maybe 50%, and your logic would say that's a bad thing.

As I say, twisted logic.

anotherRGacademic · 10/08/2021 10:28

I'm yet another Russell Group academic mumsnetter and my university is currently planning for all large lectures (which is practically all lectures, courses with small lectures having long since been deemed unviable) to be online. Given that timetabling takes months at the best of times I doubt the university's going to change policy now, at least for the autumn term. If it does, though, and I am instructed to lecture in person, I think what I will do is to strongly advise my students not to attend, turn up in a respirator which I will not take off, and play my recorded videos on the projector. There are three reasons: the community, the students, myself.

The community: by the start of term a large proportion of our students (many of whom are only 17, and have only just become eligible to be vaccinated at all) will not be fully vaccinated. Our lecture theatres are overcrowded if we have anything like full turn out, and hardly ventilated, and there's very little that can be done about this in the available buildings (no windows, for a start). Case numbers are already starting to tick up again, and that's even before the schools have gone back. The idea that by the start of semester it'll be safe to lecture in person without expecting a resulting explosion of cases among students that will act as a centre of infection for the rest of the community seems frankly silly. Indeed it would be perfect conditions in which to select, and then spread, a vaccine-resistant mutant.

The students themselves: are not invulnerable. This is an age group which is quite susceptible to post-viral effects, even if they are not very likely to be hospitalised and die. And even if they do make a straightforward recovery, catching covid (or flu) is not harmless to them and their studies. Even missing a week of work during semester is very difficult to catch up from. Miss a month, and most can forget successfully completing the year. Moreover, students away from home, maybe for the first time, living in halls or shared accommodation with noone to look after them if they're ill? I wouldn't want a child of mine catching covid under those circumstances. I would not feel it was ethical to encourage students to congregate for in person lectures, and if my employer does it, I'll feel obliged to give contrary advice as an individual.

Myself: I've just spent a month making high quality video versions of my lectures, with hand-corrected captions, to a deadline that recently passed, because the university told me lectures would be online. As a result I haven't been able to take the annual leave I was due (well, nothing new there, only the reason varies). You think I'm now going to throw away that work and do the work of giving live lectures as well? Forget it. I'll take a book to my "play my video" in person sessions if I have to do them. (Giving live lectures to several hundred students is stressful, even when you are used to it. It doesn't just take the hour you do it for: it wipes you out for much longer.) An often-forgotten point is that immediately before the pandemic, we had the longest and most serious strike of academic staff in living memory. The level of goodwill and trust from lecturing staff to management is about zero.

Kazzyhoward · 10/08/2021 10:30

@BHooks

Some unis are sticking with a hybrid model because it's more inclusive. Disability groups (and others) have been trying to point this out and keep being ignored. 😢 I really hope the positive lessons of the past 18+ months aren't lost because the privileged and uninformed are louder.
Unis only need to make "reasonable adjustments" for disabled etc as per the disability discrimination legislation.

Forcing everyone to have a substandard experience goes far beyond a "reasonable adjustment".

Kazzyhoward · 10/08/2021 10:32

@anotherRGacademic I hope that you havn't been to any shops, restaurants, etc this Summer. There's nothing special about Uni lecturers. Millions of other people are back at work dealing with "dirty" young adults. Many millions of people continued to work throughout covid. It sounds like you have a very strange attitude towards risk. Have you never crossed the road? Did you do risk assessments in previous years for the normal flu season and freshers flu?

Badbadbunny · 10/08/2021 10:40

@anotherRGacademic

I'm yet another Russell Group academic mumsnetter and my university is currently planning for all large lectures (which is practically all lectures, courses with small lectures having long since been deemed unviable) to be online. Given that timetabling takes months at the best of times I doubt the university's going to change policy now, at least for the autumn term. If it does, though, and I am instructed to lecture in person, I think what I will do is to strongly advise my students not to attend, turn up in a respirator which I will not take off, and play my recorded videos on the projector. There are three reasons: the community, the students, myself.

The community: by the start of term a large proportion of our students (many of whom are only 17, and have only just become eligible to be vaccinated at all) will not be fully vaccinated. Our lecture theatres are overcrowded if we have anything like full turn out, and hardly ventilated, and there's very little that can be done about this in the available buildings (no windows, for a start). Case numbers are already starting to tick up again, and that's even before the schools have gone back. The idea that by the start of semester it'll be safe to lecture in person without expecting a resulting explosion of cases among students that will act as a centre of infection for the rest of the community seems frankly silly. Indeed it would be perfect conditions in which to select, and then spread, a vaccine-resistant mutant.

The students themselves: are not invulnerable. This is an age group which is quite susceptible to post-viral effects, even if they are not very likely to be hospitalised and die. And even if they do make a straightforward recovery, catching covid (or flu) is not harmless to them and their studies. Even missing a week of work during semester is very difficult to catch up from. Miss a month, and most can forget successfully completing the year. Moreover, students away from home, maybe for the first time, living in halls or shared accommodation with noone to look after them if they're ill? I wouldn't want a child of mine catching covid under those circumstances. I would not feel it was ethical to encourage students to congregate for in person lectures, and if my employer does it, I'll feel obliged to give contrary advice as an individual.

Myself: I've just spent a month making high quality video versions of my lectures, with hand-corrected captions, to a deadline that recently passed, because the university told me lectures would be online. As a result I haven't been able to take the annual leave I was due (well, nothing new there, only the reason varies). You think I'm now going to throw away that work and do the work of giving live lectures as well? Forget it. I'll take a book to my "play my video" in person sessions if I have to do them. (Giving live lectures to several hundred students is stressful, even when you are used to it. It doesn't just take the hour you do it for: it wipes you out for much longer.) An often-forgotten point is that immediately before the pandemic, we had the longest and most serious strike of academic staff in living memory. The level of goodwill and trust from lecturing staff to management is about zero.

Have you looked outside lately? Everything is back to normal now. People are going back to work, shops are open, theatres are open, etc. What makes you think you're so special?

Students had an awful year being stuck in their uni flats. Yet you clearly don't care about their mental health or "university experience". How many students do you want to commit suicide before you'd accept a return to "normal" lectures? Or because you've spent time recording your own lectures, do you think you'll never have to do live lectures again? That may suit you but it won't suit the majority of students. Uni's playing these kinds of games will soon find themselves short of students who have the choice to go to Unis with more F2F, which is what the majority want.

somewhereovertherain · 10/08/2021 10:41

[quote Kazzyhoward]**@somewhereovertherain* Fees is a red herring as only 20% of students every pay back in full.*

No, that twisted statistic is the red herring.

It includes people who've paid "nearly" all the loan. It includes people who've paid all the "loan advances" but not paid all the interest that's been accruing at a stupidly high percentage rate.

Consider this. If we double tuition fees, then the statistic would fall to, say, 10%. By using your logic, that would be a good result as fewer people paid it off. But in reality, it means that lots of people have had to pay a lot more.

Conversely, if we halved fees, then the number paying off in full could rise, to maybe 50%, and your logic would say that's a bad thing.

As I say, twisted logic.[/quote]
For the majority of students will pay 9% above £27k for 30 years the rest will be written off.

Even if fess for one year was 0, it’ll make bugger all difference to the majority.

The amount of people paying it off is irrelevant, the system was never designed for the majority to pay it off

Martin Lewis has an excellent post about what little difference a discount on fees would make

So not really twisted logic.

dreamingbohemian · 10/08/2021 10:44

I'm sorry @anotherRGacademic but I think that's all totally unreasonable

I have sympathy for colleagues who are clinically vulnerable but otherwise we just need to get on with it like the rest of the country

OP posts:
IcedPurple · 10/08/2021 10:53

I think what I will do is to strongly advise my students not to attend, turn up in a respirator which I will not take off, and play my recorded videos on the projector. There are three reasons: the community, the students, myself.

How very theatrical.

Those same students will be mixing in nightclubs, pubs, crowded uni accommodation, football matches and much else besides. Why are lectures so special?

Janaih · 10/08/2021 10:54

An often-forgotten point is that immediately before the pandemic, we had the longest and most serious strike of academic staff in living memory. The level of goodwill and trust from lecturing staff to management is about zero.

This hasn't been forgotten by students and their parents I can assure you. Seeing as they didn't get any fee reduction for the many lectures they missed out on.

dreamingbohemian · 10/08/2021 10:55

@IcedPurple

Unis really need to be careful about pushing the online/remote learning model. Lots of other "providers" could provide the same content at a fraction of the cost if Unis aren't going to provide the "hands on", "F2F" experience.

I agree. Also, so many unis depend on overseas students - usually but not always Chinese - who spend upwards of 14K a year (sometimes much more) for tuition, in addition to accommodation. Will they continue to pay such handsome sums for an online 'experience', when they could get the same in China for much less?

University education isn't 'providing content' though. These days you can get all the content you want online anyway. The value in doing a degree lies in the assessments and feedback, getting personal instruction on improving skills, mentorship, networking opportunities, and above all the credibility you have with employers with a degree from a reputable institution.

Who are these alternative providers that can pop up and provide all that? There are already some places that do 'graduate certificate' type things, you watch a bunch of videos and do some quizzes and peer review exercises, and you get a certificate that means jack to employers. It is no substitute for a proper university degree, even one done partly online.

I think the real competition will be amongst universities -- who offers the most f2f, who does online elements to an acceptable level, who restores the most of the 'student experience'. Some unis are clearly being very complacent, they will find out that's a terrible idea.

OP posts:
GCAcademic · 10/08/2021 10:55

@dreamingbohemian

I'm sorry *@anotherRGacademic* but I think that's all totally unreasonable

I have sympathy for colleagues who are clinically vulnerable but otherwise we just need to get on with it like the rest of the country

Yes, I agree.
dreamingbohemian · 10/08/2021 11:01

@Janaih

An often-forgotten point is that immediately before the pandemic, we had the longest and most serious strike of academic staff in living memory. The level of goodwill and trust from lecturing staff to management is about zero.

This hasn't been forgotten by students and their parents I can assure you. Seeing as they didn't get any fee reduction for the many lectures they missed out on.

I think that's fair @Janaih

Yes, there is no trust or goodwill toward management these days. But why punish the students for that?

If you want to put pressure on management, organise a staff boycott of all the admin things management cares about, like the REF, Athena Swan, all the endless performance reviews etc. Don't put students in the crossfire.

OP posts:
Bingobango69 · 10/08/2021 11:04

Re. strike action, we are expecting to be ballotted again for strike action in the near future as university management, once more looks to gut our pensions.

AgileLass · 10/08/2021 11:11

I personally am not prepared to go on strike in the current climate, although I supported and participated in the previous ones. I just don’t think it’s fair or ethical to put students through another strike.

I also think justanotherRGacademic’s plans are completely unreasonable.

lovelyupnorth · 10/08/2021 11:20

@Bingobango69

Re. strike action, we are expecting to be ballotted again for strike action in the near future as university management, once more looks to gut our pensions.
Hopefully, if you do, you'll all get sacked. Not yet met a university lecturer who was worth what they're paid. too many clueless academics - so many that seem to have never seen the real world.
MackieMayor · 10/08/2021 11:23

@dreamingbohemian

I'm sorry *@anotherRGacademic* but I think that's all totally unreasonable

I have sympathy for colleagues who are clinically vulnerable but otherwise we just need to get on with it like the rest of the country

Gobsmacked at @anotherRGacademic post and hoping it's just some wind up merchant and not serious.

dreamingbohemian · 10/08/2021 11:34

@AgileLass

I personally am not prepared to go on strike in the current climate, although I supported and participated in the previous ones. I just don’t think it’s fair or ethical to put students through another strike.

I also think justanotherRGacademic’s plans are completely unreasonable.

I agree

I don't think anyone in education should be striking for the foreseeable. Students of all ages have been through so much.

OP posts:
Bronzegate · 10/08/2021 11:35

@AgileLass

I personally am not prepared to go on strike in the current climate, although I supported and participated in the previous ones. I just don’t think it’s fair or ethical to put students through another strike.

I also think justanotherRGacademic’s plans are completely unreasonable.

I sympathise with the lecturers at Leicester and think the forced redundancies were wrong, but their strike and marking boycott was very detrimental to students, particularly those in their final year.
Etulosba · 10/08/2021 11:52

If you want to put pressure on management, organise a staff boycott of all the admin things management cares about, like the REF, Athena Swan, all the endless performance reviews etc. Don't put students in the crossfire.

Like most colleagues in my department, I have never taken strike action. However, I think this has some merit. Boycotting the seemingly endless mandatory online courses would be a start.

TheMerrickBoy · 10/08/2021 14:35

As someone who will be doing all on-campus next year (or so it seems at the time of writing) I just really hope that all the stated desire for it, and the anger about any online content, is mirrored in attendance and engagement from students! Lack thereof has always been one of the most depressing things about the job, and I'm hoping that this whole national conversation has encouraged students to reflect on how much they do value time in the seminar room and lecture theatre, and to respond accordingly.

Badbadbunny · 10/08/2021 15:02

@TheMerrickBoy

As someone who will be doing all on-campus next year (or so it seems at the time of writing) I just really hope that all the stated desire for it, and the anger about any online content, is mirrored in attendance and engagement from students! Lack thereof has always been one of the most depressing things about the job, and I'm hoping that this whole national conversation has encouraged students to reflect on how much they do value time in the seminar room and lecture theatre, and to respond accordingly.
Just out of interest, what proportion of lectures, seminars and tutorials have less than 50% attendance?