Universities deciding whether to continue online this year (updates?)

[dreamingbohemian]

I've been on a few threads this year about whether universities will fully return to face to face learning this year or stay partly online.

My university told staff today that actually all teaching will be back to normal this year. Previously we had thought to keep large lectures online but now they have ditched that to go fully back to normal.

(Apologies for not outing myself by saying which university but it's a large London uni)

Just thought it might be helpful for people/parents to know that these decisions are getting firmed up now, so contact your university if you haven't heard anything yet -- and also just some optimism that maybe universities will be more f2f than expected this year.

@mumsneedwine

And never heard of a lecture being cancelled due to freshers flu. Or mumps, even when there was a large outbreak a few years ago.

No, or even meningitis.

Teachers are asked to be in a classroom with 30 unvaccinated kids. Regardless of what the government keeps claiming, most adults are vaccinated. So why are lecturers so terrified and why are they not vaccinated?

I don't think recording lectures for students to listen to at their convenience is a bad thing, by the way.

I don't think recording lectures for students to listen to at their convenience is a bad thing, by the way.

Hasn't this been happening for a while, even pre-pandemic? If not an audio recording of the whole lecture, then at least the slides containing the key information were made available.

I think what's different now is that glorified YouTube videos are being touted as an adequate or even superior replacement for live lectures, instead of a supplement to the 'real thing'.

@IcedPurple

In the uni I'm involved with, staff and students (most of them Chinese) on the pre-sessional English courses were told that teaching would be f2f. This was a few months ago, when social distancing and other restrictions were still in place. Then, a few weeks ago, they were told that lessons would be 'delivered' online, despite the fact that nearly all restrictions have been lifted.

It's hard not to be a bit cynical and wonder if the intention had always been to have most classes online. I could understand if restrictions had been increased, but when the opposite is true, it does seem like they promised f2f to get students to travel over, and now they're here they're happy to continue in the way that's most convenient for uni management.

Unis did exactly the same last year too. My local Uni said on their website that there would be F2F teaching, but it would be "blended learning", so some F2F, some online, etc. That was at the time the same Uni had instructed teaching staff NOT to return to Uni for the year (I have neighbours who work there!). So the Uni knew that there'd be no F2F, yet it wasn't until after deadline line for confirming places and campus accommodation that they changed their website! Even the least cynical person can see that they were lying.

My older DD has always had the chance to go to lectures in person but also watch them back (v often at double speed) for revision. But the in person bit has been invaluable, not only to ask questions but to meet her cohort. My younger DD would really like the same opportunity this year.
Unis need to return to normal like the rest of us. Or reduce fees as will be using last years recorded lectures I'm sure. I hope not too many staff lose their jobs if this happens. It makes a mockery of our 'world class' education provision.
Government should refuse funding for vice chancellors wages if not back f2f.

@IcedPurple

I don't think recording lectures for students to listen to at their convenience is a bad thing, by the way.

Hasn't this been happening for a while, even pre-pandemic? If not an audio recording of the whole lecture, then at least the slides containing the key information were made available.

I think what's different now is that glorified YouTube videos are being touted as an adequate or even superior replacement for live lectures, instead of a supplement to the 'real thing'.

Yes, indeed, all the Unis we visited with our son over the couple of years pre covid were saying that lectures were recorded to be watched/re-watched later. That's good because it's in addition to attending lectures in person, so is good for those who missed lectures for whatever reason or who didn't grasp the subject and needed to watch it again.

But it's no substitute for the majority of students who want and value live lectures, as they get more out of them than the simple academic content, i.e. getting to know their course mates, being more comfortable/confident in talking to the lecturer as they see a "real" person, not a face on a screen, etc.

If students want an "online" experience, they can get professional qualifications etc for a hell of a lot less money by doing online courses delivered by professional training firms.

If Unis want to do online, then they need to be honest and offer options, i.e. online only at £5k per year, or live at £9k per year. What isn't acceptable is when they know they're going to offer a mainly online course, but con the students into accepting places and signing up for accommodation they don't need, by not being honest.

I suspect that if Government really want Universities to return to full or even majority ‘in person’ teaching ( because some universities are classifying zoom tutorials as F2F ) there will have to be a financial element. I would prefer incentive but it’s more likely to be punitive .

Lectures especially for first years give structure to the week and a framework for study . Without that framework the leap from school to university is huge. I would agree that their pedagogical value is probably overstated but their pastoral value should not be understated.

It is typical of the myopic leadership of the UCU that they seem oblivious to the fact that more online teaching this year will undoubtedly lead to permanent reductions in staff and an increase in the precarity for ECR which is already a major problem in the sector.

But it's no substitute for the majority of students who want and value live lectures, as they get more out of them than the simple academic content, i.e. getting to know their course mates, being more comfortable/confident in talking to the lecturer as they see a "real" person, not a face on a screen, etc.

I think there's a reduction of the whole 'university experience' to a very functional concept which can be 'delivered' online, perhaps more 'efficiently' than f2f, ignoring all the often intangible benefits which go with actually interacting with peers and academic staff in person.

It's obviously attractive from the uni's viewpoint, as they get to have the students (and their money) without having to bother with such pesky things as rooming, health and safety regulations, building maintanance etc, all while claiming that offering 'blanded' learning is so very 'modern' and 'progressive'. Maybe some students agree, but I would say most do not, and they are very well aware that unis potentially save large amounts of cash while their fees do not decrease. I agree with you that if unis are going to make online learning a substantial proportion of the course, then this should be reflected in fees. But we all know it won't be.

@IcedPurple

In the uni I'm involved with, staff and students (most of them Chinese) on the pre-sessional English courses were told that teaching would be f2f. This was a few months ago, when social distancing and other restrictions were still in place. Then, a few weeks ago, they were told that lessons would be 'delivered' online, despite the fact that nearly all restrictions have been lifted.

It's hard not to be a bit cynical and wonder if the intention had always been to have most classes online. I could understand if restrictions had been increased, but when the opposite is true, it does seem like they promised f2f to get students to travel over, and now they're here they're happy to continue in the way that's most convenient for uni management.

I felt (and the same seems to be happening this year) that we were pretty much lied to by our uni to get bums on seats, signed up and into halls contracts before they back-pedalled on how much of campus was going to be open and how available ANY of campus was going to be to you. We were told blended... blended... blended... lots of face to face stuff, campus will be vibrant and learning high quality - and then timetabling came out (the night before lectures began - don't get me started on how fun that is to plan childcare around as a mature student) and we had fuck all dwindling rapidly in quantities of "all" as the term went on.

I very much feel like we were misled to make sure people didn't defer and the fees kept coming in - and from the utter lack of information we're currently getting (the only information I have is because I specifically asked my tutor myself and I know she'll tell us anything she knows) the same seems to be happening again this year. Hell - at one point we had virtual bloody clinical placements! I have a "virtual" swallowing placement coming up... I'm going to qualify having never actually listened to a bloody swallow (good job I do NOT want to go into dysphagia work really)!

The other thing I think people need to be very wary about is that once universities have basically got the bulk of their course content saved on the uni learning environment recorded in nice home-learning "friendly" format (rather than a slightly ropey recording from lecture replay software with Sam and Max going on about how wrecked they got the previous night chatting away in the third row clearly audible... plus the mandatory 5 minutes of "this bloody thing's not working again" faffing that you seem to get - that could be our very non techie department though!) it becomes a hell of a lot easier for the uni to consider reducing staffing levels as the recorded content could be argued to belong to them.

Yes, my uni have recorded lectures for a long time as a matter of course as part of their accessibility guidelines for students with learning difficulties (or differences or whatever the fuck they're calling us dyslexics and co this week), but the quality of the recordings can be so shite sometimes that we've learnt never to rely on them, but that they're handy sometimes to be able to wind something you've really not grasped the first time back. The pick up range on the lectern mics is so small that if you've got someone delivering the lecture who likes to wander as they talk (I'm guilty of this when I was teaching) - you get half the sentence as they go in and out of range!

@IcedPurple

In the uni I'm involved with, staff and students (most of them Chinese) on the pre-sessional English courses were told that teaching would be f2f. This was a few months ago, when social distancing and other restrictions were still in place. Then, a few weeks ago, they were told that lessons would be 'delivered' online, despite the fact that nearly all restrictions have been lifted.

It's hard not to be a bit cynical and wonder if the intention had always been to have most classes online. I could understand if restrictions had been increased, but when the opposite is true, it does seem like they promised f2f to get students to travel over, and now they're here they're happy to continue in the way that's most convenient for uni management.

But this is for the pre-sessional courses, rather than the main course? The restrictions have increased for Chinese students - or at least not eased. It is extremely difficult for Chinese students to get to the UK at the moment as there are hardly any flights, and if you do get a booking, there is a good chance that it will be cancelled. That will be why the pre-sessional English courses are being delivered online.

It is extremely difficult for Chinese students to get to the UK at the moment as there are hardly any flights, and if you do get a booking, there is a good chance that it will be cancelled. That will be why the pre-sessional English courses are being delivered online.

Well no, it's not, at least not in the case of the uni I'm talking about. The students are already here, and have been for several weeks. A few have had travel problems and are still in China, but the vast majority are here, living in uni accommodation. They were given 2 weeks to self-isolate in preparation for f2f classes, but now it seems it's going to remain online, despite them being asked to come over specifically for the f2f pre-sessional.

Thanks for explaining. We have a few thousand Chinese students where I work and have been told to expect that a large proportion of them won't be able to get here because of the flight restrictions.

A lot of overseas students are here , in fact I have one arriving at my home any minute. Some have never gone home others have planned to be here in moments of time to start term having completed quarantine etc. They are paying a huge amount of money and it’s a condition of their visa that that they are here for ‘face to face ‘ teaching. Additionally many of their families expect them ‘attend’ university. I actually feel ashamed as a U.K. citizen that we are treating many of these young people so shoddily

Yes, many are here from abroad and expect face to face.
My sons (from UK) were 100% online last year. So it was ludicrous - I paid £7000 rent out of income taxed at over 42%+ for a room he would not have needed and secondly his fees where he studied were about £4000 less as not in London than his London (living at home) twin doing identical course same institution but at the London branch.

This academic year they are both studying in London living at home starting 6 Sept. They recently had to submit a survey response on which days to have teaching. Usually you have a choice on this law course post grad in London of 4 half days, 2 full days etc. I think some of the law firms who pay for loads of people on the course are insisting on 3 days a week of in person face to face teaching as some students have been told that by their law firms so far but we shall see.

When my twins were at Bristol U they could always watch lectures later on line but often liked to meet others at the lectures. It was social as well as academic and then could also listen to lectures after online. One lecturer refused to push the button to record about 2 years ago. Students complained and this lecturer was new and not very good either and just did not like to be recorded. I think the person was forced to record the lectures in the end. They sent a supervisor to listen to her lecture when my son was there once after the complaints.

Students only sons' course will need to find London flats to rent sometimes for over £8000 a year and if the course will be 100% online tell them now. They have been told they can switch to 100% online if they choose but mine don't want that after 1 academic year 100% online in which they met not a single fellow student and their final university term of 2020 being 100% online too and no graduation ceremony at all from 2020 even now.

As my sons start in early September let us hope the timetable is out soon and we can see what will happen. We have hoping it will be 2 long days a week of their sessions in person face to face in London.

The "social" side of lectures etc is far more important that Uni staff seem to realise.

They seem to have the impression that all students are socialising, going to pubs/clubs, doing the team sports, etc. As usual, the ones making the noise demand the attention. I'd say there is a huge proportion of students who aren't into parties and team sports and rely on "face to face" teaching to actually meet people

Unis seem to think that it'll all be fine if "everything else" is back to normal, with just the teaching done remotely/online, so that the students can socialise on the pitches, in the pubs/clubs, etc., but that's doing a massive dis-service to the quieter/introverted students who won't be doing the "social" activities.

Not sure why unis think it's acceptable for their staff to be put into protective bubbles and not have to breath the same air as their students, but that everything else can go back to normal and it's somehow fine and safe for bar staff, shop staff, etc to operate normally.

Not sure why unis think it's acceptable for their staff to be put into protective bubbles and not have to breath the same air as their students, but that everything else can go back to normal and it's somehow fine and safe for bar staff, shop staff, etc to operate normally.

That is just complete fabrication. We are going going to be teaching f2f (we were, anyway, last autumn) where I work, and also where DH works. I don't know how familiar you are with universities, but I can assure you than academic staff are the very last people the senior management give a shit about. When we had social distancing last year (f2f with masks and two meter distancing), it wasn't to protect staff, but to ensure continuity (specialist staff off sick = no one to teach the module; lots of students sick = big impact on the cohort). No one I know wants to continue teaching online; we've had our fill of it.

My two nephews are at Uni in the US. They have been notified that everything is back fully f2f including the large lecture halls which can easily have 200 students. The condition is that you cannot attend campus unless you are fully vaccinated.

@Parker231

My two nephews are at Uni in the US. They have been notified that everything is back fully f2f including the large lecture halls which can easily have 200 students. The condition is that you cannot attend campus unless you are fully vaccinated.

The UK's UCU (University & College Union) are wanting students to be double jabbed too:-

www.ucu.org.uk/article/11684/Fully-vaccinate-students-or-face-even-worse-disruption-to-education-UCU-tells-governments

If it means that F2F teaching can go ahead as normal, then it seems the sensible thing to do.

Yes, many universities in the US are mandating vaccination. I find that odd in such a libertarian country. However, the vaccine take-up has been much lower in the US than here.

I really hope the visa issue forces all Unis to get back to f2f, especially as it seems lecturers really want that too. No f2f and visas become invalid and therefore fees not due - those international students provide a lot of money.
Failing that I think students will get angry this year. Reading festival, nightclub, pub, 60,000 at football match - yes, lecture - no.

No excuses now, everything back to f2f. Restrictions have gone and they need the social side of education back. As has been said, it's vital.

@GCAcademic - overall the U.K. and US vaccinated rates are similar however in the US there are huge differences. Some states are almost 90% vaccinated but others as low as 40%. Countries are now overtaking the U.K. so hopefully there will be a increase here in the younger generation getting vaccinations this summer.

@GCAcademic

Yes, many universities in the US are mandating vaccination. I find that odd in such a libertarian country. However, the vaccine take-up has been much lower in the US than here.

The US is not all libertarian! It's a very regional thing. Parts of the US have great vaccine take-up.

You can't attend US public schools without having all the standard childhood vaccinations so it's not such a stretch to mandate a vaccine for university too.

@mumsneedwine

I really hope the visa issue forces all Unis to get back to f2f, especially as it seems lecturers really want that too. No f2f and visas become invalid and therefore fees not due - those international students provide a lot of money. Failing that I think students will get angry this year. Reading festival, nightclub, pub, 60,000 at football match - yes, lecture - no. No excuses now, everything back to f2f. Restrictions have gone and they need the social side of education back. As has been said, it's vital.

I think it's interesting, as a poster above said, that unis are referring to tuition as being 'f2f' even if it's online. I wonder if this is to get around the visa thng? If so, I hope UKVI are on to it pronto.

And yes, I agree that with nightclubs, football stadia and public transport back to near normal, then there really is no excuse for continued online 'delivery'. That includes lectures. It's ironic that some unis are now touting education as a 'product' to be 'delivered' via a computer screen, when for years they've heavily sold the whole 'university experience', which, as has been said, isn't just about getting drunk in the student union bar, but about making friends in your class group, going for coffee after a lecture, and so on.

Online 'learning' is a sad, sterile non-experience.

It’s also about what employers are looking for , tbh. A lot of the top graduate employers take the degree as a given . It’s all about what else you have done to ‘demonstrate teamwork’ or ‘leadership’ or whatever. The university system will become two tier with those who choose to do the online remote version and those who can afford to have the traditional three year experience .

My university gives such mixed messages it's really hard to keep up with the spin. We're definitely not online, except we are sometimes but we could be blended but probably face to face or maybe hybrid

However, even without Covid we struggle getting enough rooms to fit students into because there's been rapid planned expansion and a couple of years of larger than expected admission numbers.

Even if we got them to sit on each other's knees for big lectures we don't have rooms large enough to accommodate all of them at once !