Universities deciding whether to continue online this year (updates?)

[dreamingbohemian]

I've been on a few threads this year about whether universities will fully return to face to face learning this year or stay partly online.

My university told staff today that actually all teaching will be back to normal this year. Previously we had thought to keep large lectures online but now they have ditched that to go fully back to normal.

(Apologies for not outing myself by saying which university but it's a large London uni)

Just thought it might be helpful for people/parents to know that these decisions are getting firmed up now, so contact your university if you haven't heard anything yet -- and also just some optimism that maybe universities will be more f2f than expected this year.

My university has many oversubscribed courses this year so that will affect numbers in lectures etc and room bookings. I think it will be mainly online for semester 1.

@YeDancer

My university has many oversubscribed courses this year so that will affect numbers in lectures etc and room bookings. I think it will be mainly online for semester 1.

Why is your university accepting students if they can't accommodate them?

I wouldn't be best pleased if I'd bought a full-price ticket to the theatre, only to be told that I would have to make do with live streaming because the organisers had overbooked.

@damekindness

My university gives such mixed messages it's really hard to keep up with the spin. We're definitely not online, except we are sometimes but we could be blended but probably face to face or maybe hybrid

However, even without Covid we struggle getting enough rooms to fit students into because there's been rapid planned expansion and a couple of years of larger than expected admission numbers.

Even if we got them to sit on each other's knees for big lectures we don't have rooms large enough to accommodate all of them at once !

So they're lying to students if they say/infer that F2F lectures will happen then, when they know that it won't happen. That's exactly what people were saying about last Summer when some Unis lied to students to say there'd be "blended learning" when the teaching staff had been told to stay home!

There were some very misleading statements by universities last summer. I wish they had just said - if everyone stays home we will lose so much money from rents we will go bust so you will need to pay but will not get much face to face for the good of future years.

Also I want universities to be clear that this year they will sue the state if they are forced into unfair lockdowns. I want them to promise students they will let them mix, go out, get drunk, take risks, be a normal teenager not a prison inmate.

@GlencoraP

It’s also about what employers are looking for , tbh. A lot of the top graduate employers take the degree as a given . It’s all about what else you have done to ‘demonstrate teamwork’ or ‘leadership’ or whatever. The university system will become two tier with those who choose to do the online remote version and those who can afford to have the traditional three year experience .

Another issue with that is that there's no need at all for it to be stretched out to 3 years if online. The actual content could probably be done in 12-18 months for a motivated student who's not being held back by long holiday breaks and just wants to get it over with.

Unis really need to be careful about pushing the online/remote learning model. Lots of other "providers" could provide the same content at a fraction of the cost if Unis aren't going to provide the "hands on", "F2F" experience.

I think the "two tier" system will be between the practical degrees (lab based, practical hands-on etc)., and the likes of humanity degrees, Maths, finance, Languages, etc., that are more suited to remote/online learning. Unis won't be allowed (by students) to get away with charging the same fees for a course that can be delivered cheaply online compared with a practical course that needs the expensive labs, equipment, etc etc.

@Xenia

There were some very misleading statements by universities last summer. I wish they had just said - if everyone stays home we will lose so much money from rents we will go bust so you will need to pay but will not get much face to face for the good of future years.

Also I want universities to be clear that this year they will sue the state if they are forced into unfair lockdowns. I want them to promise students they will let them mix, go out, get drunk, take risks, be a normal teenager not a prison inmate.

I agree. It's the lack of clarity (amost deceit) that's the problem.

And whilst I agree that Unis should be able to sue the state for lockdowns etc if unnecessary, I'd also say the students should be able to sue their Uni if the Uni doesn't provide F2F teaching when there are no restrictions in place at that time. (I.e. my son's Uni didn't do any F2F last October and December when there wasn't a lockdown! - the teaching staff weren't there!).

Dd is deferring her 3rd year at London uni as she can't face another year of online lectures. They say 50% but it will be 100% and little support. I'm gutted but totally understand her reasons.

Unis really need to be careful about pushing the online/remote learning model. Lots of other "providers" could provide the same content at a fraction of the cost if Unis aren't going to provide the "hands on", "F2F" experience.

I agree. Also, so many unis depend on overseas students - usually but not always Chinese - who spend upwards of 14K a year (sometimes much more) for tuition, in addition to accommodation. Will they continue to pay such handsome sums for an online 'experience', when they could get the same in China for much less?

Some unis are sticking with a hybrid model because it's more inclusive.
Disability groups (and others) have been trying to point this out and keep being ignored. 😢
I really hope the positive lessons of the past 18+ months aren't lost because the privileged and uninformed are louder.

@BHooks

Some unis are sticking with a hybrid model because it's more inclusive. Disability groups (and others) have been trying to point this out and keep being ignored. 😢 I really hope the positive lessons of the past 18+ months aren't lost because the privileged and uninformed are louder.

But if the majority hate it how is it more 'inclusive'?

And not all disabilities are the same. Some would find it harder to study online.

Also, which universities have actually come out and said that 'hybrid' learning is going to be retained indefinitely because it is more 'inclusive'?

@Janaih

Dd is deferring her 3rd year at London uni as she can't face another year of online lectures. They say 50% but it will be 100% and little support. I'm gutted but totally understand her reasons.

I'm considering the same myself. I've saved a fortune in time and money not having to commute - but it's just been horrendous, I've had to work three times as hard to take on board information as I would have done face to face and I don't know if I have another year of pretending blended bullshit is brilliant in me right now.

Some unis are sticking with a hybrid model because it's more inclusive.

No universities are doing this because it’s more inclusive, and if they are saying this then they are, as my grandfather would say, ‘having you on’

@GlencoraP

Some unis are sticking with a hybrid model because it's more inclusive.

No universities are doing this because it’s more inclusive, and if they are saying this then they are, as my grandfather would say, ‘having you on’

Yep.

Plus, have unis consulted with a representative body of students with different needs and backgrounds? I doubt it, because they know that the response would be overwhelmingly against online 'learning'. Hence the mixed messaging, talk of 'hybrid' this and 'blended' that, but what they'll end up doing is what's cheaper and more convenient for them. Not the students.

@CoffeeWithCheese really sorry you're in the same situation.
Students have had a really shit deal throughout the pandemic. I'm still reeling about the ones in halls being locked in!

The UK's UCU (University & College Union) are wanting students to be double jabbed too

www.ucu.org.uk/article/11684/Fully-vaccinate-students-or-face-even-worse-disruption-to-education-UCU-tells-governments

UCU says that there must be a focus on delivering a consistent, high-quality education, but that doing so relies on ensuring students and staff are protected from infection, so that outbreaks don't occur and fewer students and staff are forced to self-isolate.

Well, as of next Monday, no staff will be required to self isolate, should any of their students test positive (unless they subsequently do themselves, of course), will they? So that's one potential issue out of the way.

However, wanting all students to be fully vaccinated doesn't extend to agreeing with making this a requirement for attending in person, it would seem (since one's Covid-19 vaccination status is of no relevance whatsoever to sitting at home staring at a screen, at least the UCU is assuming that lectures will be things that one has to get oneself up and out of the house for, though, which is encouraging):

BANNING unjabbed university students from lectures and halls of residence would be “highly discriminatory,” the University and College Union (UCU) has warned.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson is said to be considering making vaccination compulsory for students in a bid to raise low take-up rates among young people, according to the Times.

Today, Education Minister Vicky Ford repeatedly refused to rule out such a policy, saying that “one does need to look at every practicality to make sure that we can get students back safely and make sure that we can continue to prioritise education.”

But the UCU branded the proposal wrong, arguing that it would be highly discriminatory against both those unable to be vaccinated and international students.

General secretary Jo Grady said: “Sadly, this looks and smells like a Prime Minister trying to pin the blame on students for not yet taking up a vaccine they haven’t been prioritised to receive.”

She said that Mr Johnson should instead work with universities and NHS providers to “sensitively encourage” students to accept vaccination.

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/banning-unvaccinated-students-from-university-highly-discriminatory-union-warns

@BHooks

Some unis are sticking with a hybrid model because it's more inclusive. Disability groups (and others) have been trying to point this out and keep being ignored. 😢 I really hope the positive lessons of the past 18+ months aren't lost because the privileged and uninformed are louder.

So because one group of people can't access it, no one can.

That's like where they cancel a train service because the disabled loo is out of action, so everyone suffers.

That's taking "fairness" too far!

@GlencoraP

Some unis are sticking with a hybrid model because it's more inclusive.

No universities are doing this because it’s more inclusive, and if they are saying this then they are, as my grandfather would say, ‘having you on’

I think it's more a myth perpetuated by some uni staff who don't actually like students (you should read some lecturer comments on other threads) and don't actually want to do f2f teaching.

Another comment (excuse) was that because foreign students couldn't get to the UK, it's unfair to them to give F2F teaching to those who can, but not to those who can't.

Some uni staff just want to wfh or prefer online and are desperate to find excuses to do that.

[quote Janaih]@CoffeeWithCheese really sorry you're in the same situation.
Students have had a really shit deal throughout the pandemic. I'm still reeling about the ones in halls being locked in![/quote]
Not to mention the £18 per DAY food parcels for those isolating! This, from the Uni whose only other support was a free pack of loo rolls per flat whilst isolating. Some unis really don't like students!

I'm so fed up about this.... DD was lured to her Uni last year with the promise of "blended learning" - in practice that meant five hours (one per week) of in person small group tutorials in September / October and then everything online for the rest of the year. She's never met most of the people on her course, nor any of her lecturers. The social side in halls was good but she's there to learn and meet like-minded people who can share her journey. Fearful that we will end up with more of the same this year.

It was incredibly hard for last year's first years - she was recently invited to apply to help with welcome week, orienting this year's new students, and I thought it was rather sad that she said she didn't feel equipped to do so because she didn't know anything about the Uni apart from the inside of her flat.

Russell group here - our plans are all f2f with a very few specific exceptions (which need to be justified on educational grounds) so very surprised to see earlier news on RC unis.

Another comment (excuse) was that because foreign students couldn't get to the UK, it's unfair to them to give F2F teaching to those who can, but not to those who can't.

I assume you’re referring to my comment on another thread, and if so that is a gross misrepresentation of the discussion, which was not about normal teaching of academic courses but about pre-sessional English teaching for predominantly Chinese students. Despite what the other poster said, Chinese students are going to struggle to get here for this kind of course at the moment because of the suspension of flights from China to the U.K. You seem to dislike academic staff, which is your right, but please don’t distort what I said. We will be double teaching again next year where I work; normal f2f and then online for overseas students who can’t get here, or even simply choose not to come. And I cannot emphasise enough that decisions on how teaching is delivered are NOT made by academic staff. If there is not f2f teaching, that is a decision made by management, and is something we have absolutely no say in. Teaching was not delivered online because academics are lazy bastards who don’t want to leave their houses but because that was what they were told to deliver, usually because the university told them that there wasn’t adequate teaching space to maintain social distancing (and this was far more of an issue in older universities than in campus ones). If the university says that teaching is happening f2f, that is what staff have to deliver (which we did at my university last autumn). In fact, many were not only double teaching but triple and quadruple teaching because they were only able to teach in small groups due to the university’s distancing rules. There is no personal preference about it, and the most of us would prefer to teach f2f anyway (unless everyone is made to wear masks, which is a far worse scenario than normal f2f or online, as seminar discussion is impossible).

Having dealt with 3 unis through this pandemic they’re a fucking shambles and should be forced back to face to face teaching.

So much of the online content is awful - shit tech, lecturers who can’t deliver digitally. Pre recorded.

The unis have handled this disgracefully any that continue to avoid proper teaching should be defunded.

My daughters both at Russell group unis and I was at an old ploy type.

If anyone online teaching remains it needs to be of a professional standard with proper production.

@ArcticLemming

Russell group here - our plans are all f2f with a very few specific exceptions (which need to be justified on educational grounds) so very surprised to see earlier news on RC unis.

My daughter told - only seminars f2f

DD2 who did a foundation year been told everything except practicals wil be online.

Both RG

news.sky.com/story/universities-not-returning-to-face-to-face-teaching-should-not-charge-full-fees-education-secretary-gavin-williamson-says-12377723

Not that Gavin Williamson and the Tories word is worth anything.

@BHooks

Some unis are sticking with a hybrid model because it's more inclusive. Disability groups (and others) have been trying to point this out and keep being ignored. 😢 I really hope the positive lessons of the past 18+ months aren't lost because the privileged and uninformed are louder.

As a dyslexic I’ve been massively disadvantaged by awful online lectures. Keep a hybrid model by streaming them live for those that won’t can’t attend but they must offer f2f as well.

Decent unis across europe have been doing this for years.