Students full return to campus

[DoNotBringLulu]

This came up on my Facebook feed:

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/apr/13/university-campuses-in-england-will-not-reopen-until-mid-may

If this is true, Boris et al have some explaining to do.

@IrmaFayLear

It seems there is a core of posters determined that nothing will work. “But what can we dooooo?” “it’ll never be saaaafe” “We found one student out of 10,000 who likes online so it’s ok, seeeee?”

Are you reading a different thread to me? There are lots of people offering up actual insight and knowledge which are being shot down by people who don't work in the sector.

People are offering up a very narrow view of university and seem unable to understand that there is more to universities than the 18 year undergraduate students and those making these decisions are doing so with the whole university community in mind.

People have been insisting on comparing universities to schools and even churches ....which isn't helpful.

I would love nothing more than to go back on to campus and and teach as normal but current guidelines state that social distancing should still be in place which would mean me delivering the same session 4 times.... so unless you can clone me I don't know how that will work 🤷🏼‍♀️
So until the government tell us we don't need social distancing in place my course remains online for the most part.

Unis need to be a lot more honest and transparent.

If what you have said is true, your son's university needs to be a lot more honest and transparent.

We have had no complaints of anything similar happening, because it didn't.

You can't tar all universities with same brush.

@changi

Couldn’t some students book to attend lecture in hall and it also be simultaneously recorded on line so students get a choice

No, because once all the seats are booked, the remaining students don't get a choice.

Eh? Come on that’s a silly argument. Next time those students will get up earlier and book quicker. Literally the whole world is familiar with the concept of first come first served. We’ve all been queuing to get into Tesco for the past 12 months. There may be good reasons why you can’t let a few students into the lecture hall but That’s not one of them and not a good reason to offer seats to as many as you can. You could have a rota that those that missed out week 1 could get a seat week 2 to make it fairer.

What is the difference between a church service and a lecture? apart from the ‘audience’asking questions and taking notes?

You're joking right?
I despair 😞

Surely that same "thoughtless 18 year old" is a danger to everyone they come into contact with, i.e. in shops, on public transport, in bars, clubs and restaurants, etc

Those examples are either a) fleeting contact under 15 minutes; or b) (say nightclubs) everyone there is taking the same risks voluntarily.

University teaching - being in a closed room (some teaching spaces have very bad none ventilation) for more than 15 minutes with a group of people speaking - this is a high risk activity: have a look at Erin Bromage's blogs on this.

I think teachers were hung out to dry on this, and @Abraxan's experience is appalling, and I hope there is compensation. But that doesn't mean that appalling treatment should be meted out to all. Should my colleague - over 60 and having had a minor stroke - be required to put their life at risk? And so on.

I'm not sure we should be comparing it to cinemas and churches.

Education is far more important than leisure.
Education should be a priority.
The government claim it is and it's why schools didn't close the the 'lockdown light' in the autumn term, and why schools were the first to resume. So why doesn't university come under this same level of priority?

Staff (and pupil/student) age and vulnerability applies to schools and universities (and all key worker roles) surely, but they were still expected to return f2f. Cev were allowed to stay home during lockdown 2 and 3, but Cv and older staff were expected to be in. We were told it was safe, as well as it being safe for cev and cv children/young adults. I'm not saying that's right personally but if it was deemed appropriate for other employees why not for those in universities?

Is university level education an essential service or not?

It seems the government assume it isn't.

@Abraxan

I'm not sure we should be comparing it to cinemas and churches.

Education is far more important than leisure.
Education should be a priority.
The government claim it is and it's why schools didn't close the the 'lockdown light' in the autumn term, and why schools were the first to resume. So why doesn't university come under this same level of priority?

Staff (and pupil/student) age and vulnerability applies to schools and universities (and all key worker roles) surely, but they were still expected to return f2f. Cev were allowed to stay home during lockdown 2 and 3, but Cv and older staff were expected to be in. We were told it was safe, as well as it being safe for cev and cv children/young adults. I'm not saying that's right personally but if it was deemed appropriate for other employees why not for those in universities?

Is university level education an essential service or not?

It seems the government assume it isn't.

I think this is the point for me too.

Guidance in schools - catering for students including those only a few months younger than those in university - is that social distancing is not required, so masks and ventilation are required. Large group activities are restricted unless absolutely necessary (so lectures could still be online, but seminars and labs would be just like classrooms, so masked and ventilated but not SD; lecturers etc could keep 2m distance). All students could take LFTs twice weekly. Rules for canteens, bars etc could be aligned to what is allowed in that sector elsewhere in the community. CV and CEV staff would need to work, as they do in all other sectors at the moment where f2f is an essential part of the job - but 2m distancing is probably a whole load easier in university than it is for primary teachers, who must work unmasked.

I get that there are inherent risks - there are in all other sectors too. However, in other prioritised sectors, those inherent risks are mitigated against as much as possible but the essential nature of their jobs mean they have to be done.

University education should be prioritised. It is absurd for swimming pools and gyms to be open, and non-essential shops, and schools for 18 year olds but not even small groups at universities.

If parity is important, then indeed, how are Unis going to treat students the same across different years?

You don't think we've already planned for that, and that processes are not already in place? And indeed, have been in place for years (sudden death of a lecturer for example, or the closure of a department and "teaching out" a degree course).

We actually do know what we're doing. I have 35 years of experience in three different national education systems on 3 continents.

Academics have to be extraordinarily good at what they do to even get a postdoc and then a continuing academic post. We work at a very high level, and we've been planning, risk-assessing, and adjusting ti changing circumstances since March 2020. We are still planning, using our expertise and judgement.

But hey, come here & tell me how to do my job, because you have children at university or once studied there.

We are still planning, using our expertise and judgement.

But I think you are doing so in isolation from a theoretical basis - not looking at what is happening in other sectors that are key public services, and saying 'if that is allowed in situation X, what does that mean for us'?

Eh? Come on that’s a silly argument

It's not a silly argument at all. We have to offer all students the same thing. Your suggestion does not do that.

@mumsneedwine

I think a lot of us are frustrated seeing our kids having such a shit time while paying thousands of pounds for it. It's frustrating for them not meeting anyone on their course or any of their teachers. They know virtually no one and have spent a year in their tiny bedrooms. Alone. Staring at a screen. It's frustrating being told it's going to be more of the same next term. When everywhere else is planning for normality. I have read about 2 suicides on MN this morning. Both young people. The mental health legacy of the loneliness and in many cases complete lack of support is not frustrating it's terrifying. If planning is going to prioritise students who can't be on campus then I think this needs to be made v v clear so no one bothers to go. Save the accommodation costs. Or not go at all.

Literally no one is saying next term will be the same! Most likely large lectures will be online but everything else f2f. For us that means 80-90% back to normal. It will not be like this year (barring a new crisis).

And yes, parity is incredibly important. You can't do first come first served for any required elements like lectures. That is university policy backed up by government regulation.

It's like when parents want a school to do something simple and they can't because of safeguarding -- parents will roll their eyes and say it's ridiculous but as teachers you understand the safeguarding rules and know you can't breach them. It's the same with parity for us.

But I think you are doing so in isolation from a theoretical basis - not looking at what is happening in other sectors that are key public services, and saying 'if that is allowed in situation X, what does that mean for us'?

And it just a coincidence that every higher education establishment in the country hasn't thought of that?

@cantkeepawayforever

We are still planning, using our expertise and judgement.

But I think you are doing so in isolation from a theoretical basis - not looking at what is happening in other sectors that are key public services, and saying 'if that is allowed in situation X, what does that mean for us'?

You need to tell the government and OfS that not university staff.

So much of this is out of our control. We're just implementing the guidelines the best way we can. There will never be a blanket approach because every university, faculty and course is different and has different needs.

We can't go against what the government and OfS.

@changi

But I think you are doing so in isolation from a theoretical basis - not looking at what is happening in other sectors that are key public services, and saying 'if that is allowed in situation X, what does that mean for us'?

And it just a coincidence that every higher education establishment in the country hasn't thought of that?

I think that nationally what is being done is restricted by the DfE's passivity when it comes to university education.

I'm also really hoping that placements can happen again next year.

DD's teaching practise this year was virtual. It was pretty much a waste of time. Fortunately she has had a lot of really good work placements in schools prior to her degree so will manage.

And her university wasn't unusual in having a virtual placement. I know of at least 4 others who did virtual teaching placements (probably more by without knowing someone at the other universities id have to rely in online searching rather than knowing people involved to confirm how many) and a number of health and social care, and nursing placements that were virtual or didn't happen. A friend of mine (mature student) lost this year's health care placement and it won't be added in to the next 2 years.

I do know many schools were accepting students. The school Dd did her virtual placement at told them they'd have been happy to have them in. I don't know the reasoning behind why placements weren't allowed though I assume somewhere a decision was made following advice.

I think Dd would be happy to continue with online lectures (though would prefer f2f herself) but is desperately hoping the small group sessions (in her course this is usually a fairly big percentage) and placements can restart f2f next academic term.

Bar a big lockdown happening across the country (which should be unlikely now due to our vaccination programme all being well) then I don't really see why they can't be pretty much back to normal.

🤞🏻

I think that nationally what is being done is restricted by the DfE's passivity when it comes to university education.

Thank you. Now you see that it is not 'us' just being awkward for the sake of it.

@changi

Couldn’t some students book to attend lecture in hall and it also be simultaneously recorded on line so students get a choice

No, because once all the seats are booked, the remaining students don't get a choice.

Universities are supposed to hold the most academic, intelligent , progressive minds with the ability to process information and think outside the box and adapt . And yet I am seeing no evidence of this . All I am seeing is justification why universities can’t do things as oppose to can . It is simultaneously mind blowing and scary. How about you introduce a rota system where all students have the opportunity to have one lecture Face to face out of every 4. All fair ticks the box for parity. Yes there may be some guy in India who can’t get to it but them are the breaks if you take a degree overseas. I wouldn’t expect universities to stay online in the USA for example if I couldn’t get there from the UK

I think the govt doesn’t want to lock horns with the unions. In the case of schools, all the blustering “schools closed forever!” petered out and the teachers went back to teaching. I suppose the govt is hoping the same thing happens with universities and the UCU won’t get an opportunity/excuse for some aggro and strikes.

The school Dd did her virtual placement at told them they'd have been happy to have them in. I don't know the reasoning behind why placements weren't allowed though I assume somewhere a decision was made following advice.

I imagine the university was operating a risk assessment. I see the outrage here when a university student dies at university.

Can you just imagine if an undergrad, sent to a placement or a year abroad or whatever, becomes infected with COVID-19 and is one of the young people who have become severely ill, and is in hospital or dies?

The university was enacting its duty of care, I should think. And trying to keep things equitable between students with no underlying health issues, those with underlying health conditions which make them susceptible, and those who are CEV.

This is the difference between looking at it from an institutional basis of risk assessment, and looking at it simply from the experience or POV of second-hand experience of one person.

Universities are supposed to hold the most academic, intelligent , progressive minds with the ability to process information and think outside the box and adapt . And yet I am seeing no evidence of this . All I am seeing is justification why universities can’t do things as oppose to can . It is simultaneously mind blowing and scary.
How many universities have you worked with and observed how things are working in reality?

How many university policies have you analysed and critically evaluated?

What qualifications do you have which makes you an expert in higher education policy and practice?

How about you introduce a rota system where all students have the opportunity to have one lecture Face to face out of every 4. All fair ticks the box for parity.

But it doesn't.
For many courses material has to be adapted to work effectively online and just streaming the f2f session isn't sufficient. All of my teaching sessions include a significant practical element which either needs to be delivered as a group f2f or as a group online. Just teaching a session to a quarter of the group and streaming the session would mean those watching from home are missing out. It would mean me delivering an adapted version to those online at a different time which would more than double my work load. Unless you can clone me I can't see how I can make that work when I'm already working 50-60 hours per week.

Yes there may be some guy in India who can’t get to it but them are the breaks if you take a degree overseas. I wouldn’t expect universities to stay online in the USA for example if I couldn’t get there from the UK

Clueless. Utterly clueless.

It's interesting how 'them's the breaks' seems to some people like a reasonable attitude for us to take to .... any student that's not their own kid, huh?

I can see that for some lecturers it would be hard to deliver both online and f2f at the same time - because some courses have a very interactive style of lecture, but it is a model that has worked for other lecturers well before covid and has been a useful access arrangement. It really isn't a case that if it doesn't work for some, it won't work for any.

I think there's a strong possibility we'll be live streaming live lectures from lecture theatres, yeah.

I assume none of the Uni staff on here have their own children affected by this because then they'd see just how shit it is.
Oh and teacher unions never called for schools to be closed. Not once. Nada. They called for schools to be open safely, but that was ignored. And 529 school staff subsequently died. Unis just shut the doors and locked everyone out in October, well before the government told them too.
However once vaccinated everyone else can return to normal, except Universities who are special places that can make up their own rules. You can't blame the government from June 12th as all restrictions will be lifted by then if roadmap continues. But apparently that's impossible at a University because someone might catch a sniffle.

@OhYouBadBadKitten bit like lessons in a school. V interactive, with practical demos and discussions. Been doing it since Sept, still doing it now as kids isolating. Really can't see how it's different at Uni ? It's a pain and takes organisation and time but that's my job at the moment so I get on with it.