Students full return to campus

[DoNotBringLulu]

This came up on my Facebook feed:

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/apr/13/university-campuses-in-england-will-not-reopen-until-mid-may

If this is true, Boris et al have some explaining to do.

Couldn’t some students book to attend lecture in hall and it also be simultaneously recorded on line so students get a choice?
Obviously for students that want to attend in person and they can’t it sucks but maybe they’ll get lucky the next lecture and another student is happy to be on line so everyone gets an opportunity.
Better than no body attending in person at all.
It does seem a little to me that universities are using 2020 arguments against going back to f2f when it’s now 2021.

It seems obvious to me that lectures will need to be available online this term and quite possibly through the autumn term, so that international students and those self isolating can still access them. I would hope that students could book seats in advance in a lecture theatre. Though you might find it's not needed.

Another equivalence is churches. Some parishioners attend ( book a seat) and others watch on line live ( or can watch later). I do think if old fashioned churches can manage this for their mostly elderly congregation and it works well, then surely modern universities can do the same or similar.
Churches have also been doing this for months now too. My parents watch Masses from all over the world and also book a seat in their local church at least once a week maybe twice. They love it.

There is NO way we would be allowed to offer something that only some students could access - parity is a big word where we are, and the idea that some could say they were disappointed they didn't get what others had would go down extremely badly.

I'm not arguing, I'm saying that if lectures are under the same rules of cinemas and cinemas are socially distant, it's not that easy.

and to be honest I'm a little frustrated by people who don't do this job saying 'can't you just' or 'why not this' - we work in this sector and we know how it works, it would be nice if our professional experience was credited just a little bit.

I think a lot of us are frustrated seeing our kids having such a shit time while paying thousands of pounds for it. It's frustrating for them not meeting anyone on their course or any of their teachers. They know virtually no one and have spent a year in their tiny bedrooms. Alone. Staring at a screen.
It's frustrating being told it's going to be more of the same next term. When everywhere else is planning for normality.
I have read about 2 suicides on MN this morning. Both young people. The mental health legacy of the loneliness and in many cases complete lack of support is not frustrating it's terrifying.
If planning is going to prioritise students who can't be on campus then I think this needs to be made v v clear so no one bothers to go. Save the accommodation costs. Or not go at all.

Frankly there will be no university ever again if staff are going to take the line of it’s not safe. There will always be diseases and people will always be ill and spread things. As someone who has been left severely health compromised such that I am now CEV, I can speak with some experience of having contracted something on public transport.

Speaking disparagingly about 18-year-olds as if they are all drunken freshers wilfully infecting all and sundry doesn’t sound very welcoming. In fact it’s quite nasty and smacks of a UCU bot who frankly should find a nice wfh job away from the general public. Oh, wait a minute, that’s what you want from your current job - stop those pesky students turning up because they are diseased and, anyway, they just love being online in their bedrooms

@TheMerrickBoy

There is NO way we would be allowed to offer something that only some students could access - parity is a big word where we are, and the idea that some could say they were disappointed they didn't get what others had would go down extremely badly.

I'm not arguing, I'm saying that if lectures are under the same rules of cinemas and cinemas are socially distant, it's not that easy.

So are you saying that the majority of students who are in the UK and want F2F teaching can't have it because a minority of students are outside the UK and can't return? If so, that's absolutely unacceptable. Those unable to attend in person need to be given the option to take a year out and return next year.

@TheMerrickBoy

and to be honest I'm a little frustrated by people who don't do this job saying 'can't you just' or 'why not this' - we work in this sector and we know how it works, it would be nice if our professional experience was credited just a little bit.

@TheMerrickBoy we are not criticising your professional,experience. Although I would argue that you probably have as much experience of pandemics as we all do! It’s just the presumption that universities could possibly be out of sync with the rest of the economy if we open up fully. With lectures still online when cinemas , nightclubs (will the student union bar stay closed if lecture theatres stay closed) and theatres possibly open. Also not sure of parity either surely every student this year has not got what students last year got ie regular face to face lessons, regular labs, field trips etc so no parity there across years. How will this be addressed?

Before covid I've read of some lectures being so big at some universities, that they've had to have overflow lecture theatres with the lecture being live streamed,

@mumsneedwine

I think a lot of us are frustrated seeing our kids having such a shit time while paying thousands of pounds for it. It's frustrating for them not meeting anyone on their course or any of their teachers. They know virtually no one and have spent a year in their tiny bedrooms. Alone. Staring at a screen. It's frustrating being told it's going to be more of the same next term. When everywhere else is planning for normality. I have read about 2 suicides on MN this morning. Both young people. The mental health legacy of the loneliness and in many cases complete lack of support is not frustrating it's terrifying. If planning is going to prioritise students who can't be on campus then I think this needs to be made v v clear so no one bothers to go. Save the accommodation costs. Or not go at all.

I fully agree. Trouble is that some Universities have a lot of Uni-owned accommodation on campus, so they can't tell students the truth about there being little or no F2F as if they did, the students would stay at home and the Uni would have empty halls/flats. They need the hall/flat income, so that's why they won't be honest about how little F2F their students will get.

If "blended" is to be the new norm, then Unis quickly need to rethink their accommodation. Most is tiny bedrooms on the assumption that students spend little time in them and spend most time in lecturers, seminars, library, common rooms, study space, etc. At a time when they're closed, it's a miserable existence being stuck in a tiny bedroom.

My son is in a Uni flat with 7 others. Their only "communal" space is a tiny kitchen with a small table and 4 chairs, so they can't "socialise" in it, hence they have nowhere to socialise. In normal times, they have a college common room, college bar, college cafe, etc, with wide screen tvs, lounge seating, pool/snooker table, etc - all that's closed and has been most of the term. All his flat mates can do in their flat is "socialise" on the landing, where they sometimes set up board games etc, sitting on the floor. It's all completely unacceptable and made worse that the Uni conned them to sign up for that accommodation on promises of blended learning, "restricted F2F" etc., when in reality, they got none of that, even last October before the latest round of lockdows/restrictions.

@Stirmecrazy Also not sure of parity either surely every student this year has not got what students last year got ie regular face to face lessons, regular labs, field trips etc so no parity there across years. How will this be addressed?

That's a very good point. If parity is important, then indeed, how are Unis going to treat students the same across different years?

That's a very good point. If parity is important, then indeed, how are Unis going to treat students the same across different years?

You can do different things for different groups/cohorts/years. That happens regularly anyway as courses, modules and staff change regularly which can impact on delivery.

But you can't treat students in the same cohort differently which is why we can't offer some students on a course f2f and the rest of the students online delivery.

I have a September and a January start for my course. The course content is the same but the delivery has been different and that's fine.

[quote Badbadbunny]**@Stirmecrazy* Also not sure of parity either surely every student this year has not got what students last year got ie regular face to face lessons, regular labs, field trips etc so no parity there across years. How will this be addressed?*

That's a very good point. If parity is important, then indeed, how are Unis going to treat students the same across different years?[/quote]
Well next year, assuming everything is normal, as we hope and trust, then for example those students won't get the extended deadlines, safety nets, individiual extensions without evidence, and so on, that we've been handing out this year, I guess.

and to be honest I'm a little frustrated by people who don't do this job saying 'can't you just' or 'why not this' - we work in this sector and we know how it works, it would be nice if our professional experience was credited just a little bit.

This is really starting to piss me off too.

@TheMerrickBoy

There is NO way we would be allowed to offer something that only some students could access - parity is a big word where we are, and the idea that some could say they were disappointed they didn't get what others had would go down extremely badly.

I'm not arguing, I'm saying that if lectures are under the same rules of cinemas and cinemas are socially distant, it's not that easy.

Have you asked students? I’ve just asked my daughter and she said it would be fine with her

I'm not sure who's even said that 'blended is the new normal' - I personally think if anything's not quite immediately fully normal, it'll be big lectures. That is all.

have you asked students? I’ve just asked my daughter and she said it would be fine with her

You're assuming it's my decision - it's not.

@sashagabadon

Another equivalence is churches. Some parishioners attend ( book a seat) and others watch on line live ( or can watch later). I do think if old fashioned churches can manage this for their mostly elderly congregation and it works well, then surely modern universities can do the same or similar. Churches have also been doing this for months now too. My parents watch Masses from all over the world and also book a seat in their local church at least once a week maybe twice. They love it.

So we're comparing university lectures with church services now are we?

I wonder how many people have an exam on the church service? Or need that information to write an assignment or get a job?

Ridiculous comparison

@TheMerrickBoy

I'm not sure who's even said that 'blended is the new normal' - I personally think if anything's not quite immediately fully normal, it'll be big lectures. That is all.

Trouble is that Uni's have lost trust. Many were saying last Summer than the start of the Autumn term would be "blended" but in reality, it just didn't happen in some unis. I have screen prints from one Uni website from last August saying "blended" with tutorials, seminars etc in person. Then just after deadline day, they changed it and watered it down to "face to face if possible". Govt rules/restrictions didn't change last September, so it was basically a lie to con students into accepting offers and committing to accommodation. October should have been "blended learning", but my son had no F2F at all, no seminars, no tutorials, and that was at a time before the restrictions/lockdown. In reality, none of his lecturers were even on campus and hadn't been since Easter, so F2F was never going to happen. Unis need to be a lot more honest and transparent.

It seems there is a core of posters determined that nothing will work. “But what can we dooooo?” “it’ll never be saaaafe” “We found one student out of 10,000 who likes online so it’s ok, seeeee?”

Government guidelines didn't change but they totally screwed us over with the A level fiasco meaning lots of universities had to take far more students then they'd planned for. This made in person delivery impossible in lots of cases.

Couldn’t some students book to attend lecture in hall and it also be simultaneously recorded on line so students get a choice

No, because once all the seats are booked, the remaining students don't get a choice.

But no, I haven't canvassed students on their Easter break about an idea that just came up on Mumsnet.

I'm going to try to back away now because I think there's been some good conversation and understanding by all parties, but now I can feel myself getting to the point of wanting to know what every poster on here does for a living so I can tell them how they can do it better and please their clients/customers/pupils according to my particular priorities and notions of how things ought to be. Which I imagine everyone would find really annoying. Becuase you know you're doing your job the best you can and in good faith, and that the pandemic has doubtless affected your work practices in ways beyond yours or anyone else's control, and you probably have some dissatisfied cluents/customers/pupils but can't necessarily sort it all out in just the way they'd like you to. Right?

I have a kid at uni too - I get it, I really do.

@TheMerrickBoy

have you asked students? I’ve just asked my daughter and she said it would be fine with her

You're assuming it's my decision - it's not.

But you’re using this to back up your arguments presumably as your uni has told you this? But you don’t even know if this is true or not? For me, Basically a uni education costs about £20k a year all in not to mention the grand or two interest on top. Student complaints may be easy to ignore but parents less so. What is the difference between a church service and a lecture? apart from the ‘audience’asking questions and taking notes? I’ve been to both loads of times, I day dream more at church.