Where did the idea come from that extracurricular activities were important for university applications?

[Reallybadidea]

Was it ever true? I applied to universities in the 90s and throughout secondary, my parents were obsessed with me joining clubs, sports teams, DofE so that I'd "have something to put on my UCAS form to show that you're a well-rounded applicant". It still seems to be a popular belief on here that having grade A piano (for eg) will enhance your application.

I get that courses such as medicine, nursing etc need relevant work experience. But the other stuff? Is it/was it ever important?

I agree about the introvert part , frankly I couldn’t sell coal to Newcastle to coin a phrase. I think I must be very odd because I have tried to bring my children up to show humility and always put others before themselves, to think less about ‘rights’ and more about ‘responsibilities’I can’t bear boasting and think that people should be judged on actions not words . But these days they are all expected to blow their own trumpets etc and they have struggled with this when it comes to CV writing etc as I have myself .

Having said that I have encouraged my dc to have hobbies and I am not a fan of exams for the sake of them,I think our education system is far too narrow and academically based and there should be more vocational subjects and courses for all levels of ability. Creative subjects and activities are very good for people’s mental health, we shouldn’t be learning the piano or painting to get UCAS points but enhance our dc quality of life and their mental health as adults .

Sorry that was a bit of a rant

So, LSE does say you can mention it, Loughborough encourages it as does UCAS, and Bath 's extensive advice recommends the inclusion of relevant extra curricular and no one knows what Durham wants. Equally, therefore, it does seem to have become another urban myth that you shouldn't mention non academic stuff at all.

I agree with you arse but equally we do seem to be putting down sporty ones who are more likely, sport dependent to come from less advantaged backgrounds. Their experiences should no more be discounted that others. Just because you are sporty doesn't make you some kind of exhibitionist show off. My older DS was the only state school child in county cricket and is very very introvert (the bullying out of him is a whole other thread). the point stands that eh did remarkably well to egt to that level, especially given he had no schools coaching. God, if he hadn't had that, and his FA coaching badge I have no idea what he would have put in his PS!

LQ, I am a bit like come, I think and I am not sure if you are more urban. Where I live there are very few temporary jobs for teens or students and you need your own transport - or mum or dad- to get to them. Certainly not ten a penny.

Yes - I think though LSE does stress their decision will be based on their academic prowess.

I will ignore the comment about parents being expected to provide for their children from birth until they get a job. That would be lovely and many of us are in the fortunate position to be able to do that. Many are not.

As regards why it may be that fewer than expected state school applicants apply for medicine it comes back I suspect in the greater part to the lack of advice either at all or early enough. Many kids are blocked from certain degrees or careers (at least on a straight through route from school to uni) because of this. This UCAS report was issued last week and alludes to this. Hence why I believe the area where the equalling out needs to be is not whether someone can play piano, go on trips for D of E but access to the quality of advice they get when choosing gsces, and then subsequently A levels to keep open potential choices .

www.ucas.com/data-and-analysis/undergraduate-statistics-and-reports/ucas-undergraduate-end-cycle-data-resources-2020/2020-entry-ucas-undergraduate-report-where-next

This makes an interesting but also sad read for anyone who may be interested in taking a peak. If you just want to skim a part page 20 of the main report would be where I would suggest.

*peek

I agree about the introvert part , frankly I couldn’t sell coal to Newcastle to coin a phrase. I think I must be very odd because I have tried to bring my children up to show humility and always put others before themselves, to think less about ‘rights’ and more about ‘responsibilities’I can’t bear boasting and think that people should be judged on actions not words . But these days they are all expected to blow their own trumpets etc and they have struggled with this when it comes to CV writing etc as I have myself .

'The thing is, me and my children are just so humble. Humbliest people you'll ever meet, us'

@Lollipop888 with regards to the reduction in benefits for a family I was talking about the hypothetical situation where a family may be expected to support an adult for a 6 month period were the system to switch to a post qualification application method. Perhaps I made this more clear in later posts because I did explain a situation where a single parent I know had their various benefits/child maintenance disappear overnight in August which is fine in the context of supporting a child for 6 weeks until they go to uni in September but less so if they need to do so for 6 months as that would be when the student would be able toi access their maintenance loans unless they propose a system whereby the maintenance loan can be claimed during the application process to.

*too.

@MrsTabithaTwitchit

I agree about the introvert part , frankly I couldn’t sell coal to Newcastle to coin a phrase. I think I must be very odd because I have tried to bring my children up to show humility and always put others before themselves, to think less about ‘rights’ and more about ‘responsibilities’I can’t bear boasting and think that people should be judged on actions not words . But these days they are all expected to blow their own trumpets etc and they have struggled with this when it comes to CV writing etc as I have myself .

Having said that I have encouraged my dc to have hobbies and I am not a fan of exams for the sake of them,I think our education system is far too narrow and academically based and there should be more vocational subjects and courses for all levels of ability. Creative subjects and activities are very good for people’s mental health, we shouldn’t be learning the piano or painting to get UCAS points but enhance our dc quality of life and their mental health as adults .

Sorry that was a bit of a rant

I agree that it is too narrow and this wasn't actually helped with the doing away of technical colleges or polys and rebranding them all as unis as a one fit certainly does not suit all.

Piggy
Yes, I live on the edge of a city with lots of warehouse / manual jobs within a 25 minute walk.
BUT
THe benefits thing is still a red herring as I have nowhere suggested changing the current term timetable
just the paperwork schedule.

The KEY thing is to make the system transparent and understandable
hence why Personal Statements seeking well rounded individuals
are exclusionary
same with internships

and compulsory volunteering

re preparing for children
try telling that to my friend whose child developed cancer and then a few years later her husband died.

From SeasonFinale's link:
Two in five students felt more information and advice would have led to them making better choices, and over 60% said this would have been beneficial when they made their GCSE/National 5 choices
LOL. I'd love to hear the parents' and teachers' version of events. What's that Chinese saying about 'when the student is ready the teacher will appear and until then they never listen'.
and over 60% said this would have been beneficial when they made their GCSE/National 5 choices
Yet many moan about being 'forced' to keep their options open by doing EBacc.

I had typed out a thought I had which clearly my phone thought was crap and decided to delete it

What about if instead of a personal statement there was an application form along the lines of the unifrog one with sections that could include supra curricular, extra curricular, sections for medics and the unis could say which sections they would use, which they would ignore, whether they use as a tiebreak only or use holistically or not at all. That way people would be able to see what clearly what they were looking for and ensure they applied to unis that cherished their strengths . As I said a random thought and I am sure there may be a reason why it wouldn't work, but probably not less so that the current PS?

I kind of believe in EBacc Light. I really don't think one particular subject such as a language should be forced upon someone with either no aptitude or an spld. I do believe in options that leave a wide range open.

@senua

From SeasonFinale's link: Two in five students felt more information and advice would have led to them making better choices, and over 60% said this would have been beneficial when they made their GCSE/National 5 choices LOL. I'd love to hear the parents' and teachers' version of events. What's that Chinese saying about 'when the student is ready the teacher will appear and until then they never listen'. and over 60% said this would have been beneficial when they made their GCSE/National 5 choices Yet many moan about being 'forced' to keep their options open by doing EBacc.

Actually, careers advice and guidance has ben woefully underfunded for years and not prioritized by government or many schools and colleges. It is very rare for students to get proper, independent advice from a qualified careers adviser when making their GCSE choices. This comment really doesn't surprise me.

In my experience schools only give the students the options that they offer. A levels would not have been appropriate for my son, but luckily he had me to tell him about a course at college he never knew existed. He knew exactly what his end goal was, but no idea how to get there. The options of BTEC in health and social care, Art, IT, Sport, Business or Dance are heavily pushed for students like him because those are the only BTEC options offered. Some key subjects like Music or a MFL are only offered as a 4th enrichment AS level option.

I actually don't believe that EBACC keeps options open.

I havent RTFT but even volunteering (if from a younger age) will depend on parent input -either finding out or helping get placements for volunteering, transporting child to volunteering opportunity etc, and of course the volunteering trips that cost about 5k to do!
Our local fb page is full of parents advertising their childs fundraising venture to pay for their world challenge or volunteer trip to Ecuador/costa Rica etc
But a lot of enterprises are selling items that they have either made or bought in bulk, or bought materials/ingredients for. I'm sure in most cases the parents are providing the raw materials....and then the advertising (by asking on fb)

@Comefromaway

In my experience schools only give the students the options that they offer. A levels would not have been appropriate for my son, but luckily he had me to tell him about a course at college he never knew existed. He knew exactly what his end goal was, but no idea how to get there. The options of BTEC in health and social care, Art, IT, Sport, Business or Dance are heavily pushed for students like him because those are the only BTEC options offered. Some key subjects like Music or a MFL are only offered as a 4th enrichment AS level option.

I actually don't believe that EBACC keeps options open.

This is why teachers shouldn't be giving careers advice. Schools should employ independent, impartial and,most importantly, qualified careers advisers.

This is why teachers shouldn't be giving careers advice. Schools should employ independent, impartial and,most importantly, qualified careers advisers.
But they cannot afford to.

The 6th form my kids went to is huge (2000 kids per year)
so it can afford three full time higher/further education staff.

State schools with maybe 200 per year cannot afford that.
LEAs might have been able to pre austerity
Academy Chains might be able to
Stand alone academies - not a chance

Maybe it should be made a requisite of private schools charity status to provide careers advisers to state schools

When we went to an open day at the local FE college (on a Saturday) the college told me that because he attended a school with a 6th form that wasn't in the same MAT they not allowed to offer him a taster day like they would with students from other local schools.

They did put on a special taster evening session for him and other like him.

Interesting Listening. Ds went to a standalone academy that was just in the process of joining a MAT with one other institution (a 6th form college)

This is why teachers shouldn't be giving careers advice. Schools should employ independent, impartial and,most importantly, qualified careers advisers
But they cannot afford to.

It's a statutory requirements so they have to. It is also recommended that those advisers are qualified to at least a level 6.

Maybe it should be made a requisite of private schools charity status to provide careers advisers to state schools

Nope. Terrible idea. How would that solve the issue?

The government needs to properly fund careers education and guidance in schools and colleges. That is the key issue.

They need to also support the re-professionalization of the sector, putting careers advisers on the the teaching pay scale would help massively as most of them hold qualifications that are equivalent or higher than a teaching qualification yet they're paid peanuts.

Jerk
Schools also have to have daily assembly.
They don't.
My point about getting Private schools to share resources is that
once the careers team have helped their kids
they can take a day a week to help the local kids.
Private schools have the resources
State schools do not.
Its also tricky where 6th form and GCSE are not on the same site
the careers teams are not in the secondary schools at all.
Asking for things to be properly funded is meaningless unless you have the right people to hire.

The careers team at Winchester College are clearly highly effective
so sharing that expertise should be a no brainer

An 18 yo can claim benefits for him/herself (Universal credit- about £340pm ) whilst still living in the family home , no longer in full time education and seeking work. A friend takes money from her son (from his UC) for his ‘keep’. She lost Child benefit and child tax credits once he left full time non advanced education. He’s not left with much so is keen to get a job.

Many schools in the US, such as Harvard, used to be open only to white Protestant men. When they opened up admissions to others, they were dismayed to find that if they awarded places purely on academic merit, the majority of the student body would be Jewish. They therefore introduced the vague concept of well-roundedness as a criterion to allow them to select dumber, lazier white Protestants ahead of more deserving applicants from less desirable backgrounds while seeming to support meritocracy. Many schools in the US continue to use such criteria to allow less deserving whites places at competitive schools that would otherwise be almost entirely filled by East Asians.

@Longtimenewsee

An 18 yo can claim benefits for him/herself (Universal credit- about £340pm ) whilst still living in the family home , no longer in full time education and seeking work. A friend takes money from her son (from his UC) for his ‘keep’. She lost Child benefit and child tax credits once he left full time non advanced education. He’s not left with much so is keen to get a job.

I've been looking into this as ds is talking about taking a year out as he feels he isn't ready for uni yet. It's just under £80 per week he would get minus "keep".