Where did the idea come from that extracurricular activities were important for university applications?

[Reallybadidea]

Was it ever true? I applied to universities in the 90s and throughout secondary, my parents were obsessed with me joining clubs, sports teams, DofE so that I'd "have something to put on my UCAS form to show that you're a well-rounded applicant". It still seems to be a popular belief on here that having grade A piano (for eg) will enhance your application.

I get that courses such as medicine, nursing etc need relevant work experience. But the other stuff? Is it/was it ever important?

Many top US Universities still reserve places for Legacy students the more generations of your family have paid into the alumnus fund the more certain you are of a place
NOT something you want to copy.

The problem is that for universities which are hugely oversubscribed just selecting on grades alone is very difficult . Durham has over 100:1 applications for ds subject this year apparently . It also knows that a high proportion will firm it as first choice .
So move to post exam applications and fill from the top
no need for Personal statements
simple

@ListeningQuietly

Many top US Universities still reserve places for Legacy students the more generations of your family have paid into the alumnus fund the more certain you are of a place NOT something you want to copy.

The problem is that for universities which are hugely oversubscribed just selecting on grades alone is very difficult . Durham has over 100:1 applications for ds subject this year apparently . It also knows that a high proportion will firm it as first choice .
So move to post exam applications and fill from the top
no need for Personal statements
simple

which is discriminatory as discussed above.

Season I am still not getting it

I think in Australia the final exams are sat in Nov and their Uni term starts either late Jan or early Feb. So a short turn around.

What's the reason it takes 2 months to mark papers and publish results?

I have indeed addressed it multiple times, including in interview *season'. It is quite simply not a priority of a large comprehensive which sends most students off to first choice universities (whether those are the most suitable first choice unis is a whole other matter), so it is seen as tinkering around the edges. That kind of thing would be regarded as a luxury frill. It is woeful at our schol (and many others) : if you point things out at a school, it is not always good for one's own career progression!

The reason DS's school has a UCAS person comes partly out of a desire to promote the role holder I suspect ( internal politics!) and also the fact that the school is on various outreach lists for some universities.

So move to post exam applications and fill from the top

How would this work if everybody who applies has top grades. Do you just take them on the fastest to the phone. I suppose we could move to a marks based system but then you would probably end up, as several graduate employers have found, with a cohort even more squewed to academically selective schools and sixth forms.

Seasonfinale
Why is it discriminatory to fill places based on actual grades
(with context adjustments by algorithm as is done by the many courses that do not use Interviews or Personal Statements)

If the exams are sat in June, with electronic moderation
results could be out by the end of July
so admissions happens in August
for a mid September start

it could be done
it should be done

@Piggywaspushed

I am not turning this into an us v them season. I do think, however,that lots of people really don't realise the dearth of in schol advice in many many average schools. MN is a far better source of advice (when filtered) than my schol would ever give.

There definitely are schools who invest in actual UCAS advisers : DS's is one.

At my school the HOSF writes all the references (we have 250 students in year 13!). The PS checking is totally ad hoc, given by form tutors (who barely know/meet the kids), the HOSF (who often gives rather dated advice) and potentially a subject teacher , if asked. Most of these (being typically in their 40s +) will have limited info about what unis want in a PS and so often give very bad advice. We certainly never have any training. We have no staff members (well, possibly two) who went to Oxbridge but are not an outreach school. It's all quite a thorny issue.

From the other side - as someone who used to do university admissions - I agree. It used to make me quite sad to see the disparity in the quality of school references. We didn't actually use these much but presumably the schools thought we did, and some of them were (usually clearly well-meaningly) hopeless. Where I worked was well-regarded but not top 10, so we used to get a lot of students applying who hadn't done quite as well in their AS-levels (when they were standardly taken) as expected - loads of them had references clearly written before/during the summer confidently explaining why the student would get 4 As in their AS-levels that had then never been updated to explain why, or even acknowledge that, they hadn't

DH is designated as one of the staff to give Oxbridge advice at his school, because he went there. Absolutely everything he knows comes from me - and I interviewed for one college, one year, when I was a postdoc, so my knowledge is hardly boundless (my admissions experience is nearly all for a different university where I did it for five years). But otherwise he'd be expected to confidently give advice on the basis of an interview he did when he was 17.

Oh and just to be clear, the UCAS adviser at DS's school is an English teacher with a -probably not very highly paid - position of responsibility. I do know that some of these highly funded London schools (the darlings of the DfE) have employed specialist UCAS advisers and that some elite public schools have them- which I presume is a model these London free schools are copying.

In Australia don’t you apply before hand it offers are only made after results , or is that Ireland?

One of the problems with our system is the need to provide accommodation , in most other countries a much higher proportion of students live at home or in private accommodation

Tabitha
How many kids are now getting the top grades?
Times three?
With contextual adjustment?

The unis already get the results two days before the kids do.
They know where to set their bar.

I love imagining Malala's PS!

I did not know this about Bristol accommodation (makes mental note..)

I’m pretty sure Oxford and Cambridge look kindly on people who are good at rowing don’t they?

Or is that a thing of the past too?

They do post results application in Scotland, on the whole. Entirely different school set up so would need massive structural changes.

Lots of Scottish students apply to pretty local universities, too. There isn't quite that same snobbery. Yes, there is a general awareness that Edinburgh,Glasgow and St A's are'the best' (although otehr unis are consider really good too) but most kids from Glasgow wouldn't make a huge effort to got to Edinburgh if Glasgow and Strathclyde are on their doorstep and vice versa. Most of my friends at school went to Glasgow unless they didn't quite have grades for law/vet/ medicine or wanted to do something they did really well at Stirling or Aberdeen. A few went to England (including me) and no one went to St Andrew's!

Many years ago this was mentioned to me, I was typical teenager of those days and did nothing in my spare time except hang about with my friends and was obsessed with boys. I joined the local Archaeological society and signed up for the National Trust youth section, Job done.

I probably put 'I go shopping and to the cinema with my friends' on mine...

Like most 80s educated people on here , I have no recollection of writing one.

I put that I had passed my grade 5 piano and was a member of a local amateur operatics society. I liked reading and listening to classical music.

I just looked up D of E out of interest as ds's old school has now started offering it. £130 for Bronze, £160 for silver and £250 for Gold.

It's free at my school!! Obviously, 'free' is a concept as boots, clothing etc is required but it is not charged for.

It sounds abit naughty tbh , charging that much ...

*The DofE endeavours to keep your costs down so the current Welcome Pack, which includes the participation fee, is £22 for the Bronze Award, £22 for Silver and £29 for Gold. There may be additional costs for activities and Licensed Organisations that run the DofE, such as schools, may add a small fee to cover administration costs etc.

If a school, club or other operator charges you more than this, it is because they include additional costs to them, such as transport or expedition etc. They must tell you of any additional costs and what they cover.*

Ok @listeningquietl you hadn't made it clear that you would still build in contextual to the fill from the top model you suggested which addresses some of the discriminatory aspects.

When would applications be made? If before results it still doesn't address those that don't aim high enough. If post then it doesn't address the fact that some families can't afford to subsidise a young adult sitting around for 4 months and loss of potential benefits. There are specific studies into all of this.

It also does not address the 21000 x 4 applications for each medicine place and how and when interviews for these would work logistically.

Ok as far as UCAS Advisers then yes there may be a handful of elite places that have them but it is a misconception that independent schools have them as a rule and that is why I did not want it to descend to a them v us.

Whilst I appreciate that you may not want to rock the boat as far as your personalcareer progressions concerned, @Piggywaspushed, how else will it ever be addressed if teachers at the coal face aren't pulling it up? I honestly am not asking this to be goady but wonder if you do have any ideas how, even with widening participation, it may be? Or do you think as the widening participation programmes and contextual offers are more publicised there will be a natural progression towards a higher self expectation from those students? I am conscious there are so many aspects to all of the points raised and my posts are often fairly long to read sometimes too!

@ListeningQuietly I completely agree that we need to find a way but I am not convinced that our grade system is that nuanced at the moment.

Under your system would you apply before results? otherwise how would the universities know how many people are likely to apply to their dept and how would they know where to set the bar. Say for example they set the bar at A*AA expecting 80 people to apply with contextually adjusted grades in hand but actually 200 apply with contextually adjusted grades at that level. How do they decide who to take ?

I think a better system would be to apply but the university only makes offers after results , that way they would have some idea of their ‘pool’ They would only offer the number of places available , but what would happen to those rejected, there would need to be some method of reapplication .

DofE
DCs school / college you had to pay
and the trips were on top of that
and the late pickups (after the school bus had gone)

Even though its a fully mixed comp, DofE was for rich kids, NCS for poor

My understanding is it’s more a tiebreaker.

So many students with straight A’s, so when comparing the two they’re going to choose the applicant that can achieve those grades while also playing sport or whatever.

Weeding out those who have the grades because they spent every hour god sends revising- if you need to do that level of work for a’levels then uni will be a shock.

Fwiw I was a fairly high level in my sport, did a lot of travelling, coaching etc.

Nearly every interview I have had, starting from postgrad has asked about that rather than academics or experience.

As I said season I have flagged it . Hence my reputation as a boat rocker and my lack of promotion

@Piggywaspushed

I love imagining Malala's PS!

I did not know this about Bristol accommodation (makes mental note..)

It is incorrect so don't bother. They guarantee an offer of accommodation to all first years. There was a slight issue where a block wasn't finished on time and They had to be housed outside Bristol for a short time and then moved in.

OK , thanks unmakes mental note