Where did the idea come from that extracurricular activities were important for university applications?

[Reallybadidea]

Was it ever true? I applied to universities in the 90s and throughout secondary, my parents were obsessed with me joining clubs, sports teams, DofE so that I'd "have something to put on my UCAS form to show that you're a well-rounded applicant". It still seems to be a popular belief on here that having grade A piano (for eg) will enhance your application.

I get that courses such as medicine, nursing etc need relevant work experience. But the other stuff? Is it/was it ever important?

If post then it doesn't address the fact that some families can't afford to subsidise a young adult sitting around for 4 months and loss of potential benefits.
Why would kids be sitting on benefits?
They will go out and get jobs as they already do

Tabitha
When I went to school, getting straight As at A level was incredibly rare like vanishingly.
The new grade boundaries should allow proper differentiation at the top again
which will solve the problem.
If only 10% are getting A, the stats of AA*A become slim enough to tidy up with contextual and hit the numbers

Thinking about it, the UCAS form would go in after the exams
(something to do at the end of term)
but NO OFFERS would be made until after the grades come out.

I do not know why Medicine still has a different timetable
but their state / private ratio is atrocious
so they should be forced to change too

@Piggywaspushed

As I said season I have flagged it . Hence my reputation as a boat rocker and my lack of promotion

Bummer. I hope when you decide to eventually retire or leave you have a fab last year rocking the boat massively!

@Piggywaspushed

As I said season I have flagged it . Hence my reputation as a boat rocker and my lack of promotion

I have personal experience of that in a different area with dh. Last year he flagged up several weaknesses during a re-organisation consutlation and as a result was openly managed out of certain areas.

@ListeningQuietly

If post then it doesn't address the fact that some families can't afford to subsidise a young adult sitting around for 4 months and loss of potential benefits. Why would kids be sitting on benefits? They will go out and get jobs as they already do

Tabitha
When I went to school, getting straight As at A level was incredibly rare like vanishingly.
The new grade boundaries should allow proper differentiation at the top again
which will solve the problem.
If only 10% are getting A, the stats of AA*A become slim enough to tidy up with contextual and hit the numbers

Thinking about it, the UCAS form would go in after the exams
(something to do at the end of term)
but NO OFFERS would be made until after the grades come out.

I do not know why Medicine still has a different timetable
but their state / private ratio is atrocious
so they should be forced to change too

I an unsure if you are being deliberately obtuse or really have no concept of benefits that some people tap into such as single person council tax which they will lose and of course the old get a job but only for 4 months and then I am off! which would be very attractive to an employer! Again I assume you live in an area where there is not a high rate of unemployment to be able to tap into the walk into a job culture.

Maybe the state/private split for medics is because the private can afford to volunteer whereas you have already pointed out others have to work and indeed you still don't think it would be discriminatory for them to have a 4 month gap potentially havibg to be subsidised by parents who can ill afford to do so.

Sorry you are right about Bristol but not necessarily if you apply through clearing, but not all universities guarantee for those holding insurance offers for example UCL.

I suppose I just meant that it’s harder for places like Durham and St Andrew’s because they are geographically small and don’t have the availability of private halls.

I don't recall it being important when I applied to universities in the early 80s. But people didn't make much of a fuss about applying, supporting statements etc. I went o a very academic girls grammar school and I don't think they made any input to the process. I think I just did it at school one day.

When my DS was applying to do Maths last year his preferred university was very clear that they didn't read the personal statement. The friendly admissions tutor said 'well they are applying to do Mathematics after all so we only care that they can do that.' The implication being that if you're good at Maths you're hardly likely to be staring in the school musical every year.....

To get a job for 4 months round here an 18 year old would have to lie or sign up to an apprentiship/kickstart scheme then drop out when the uni place started (again would involve lying).

Season
I live in an area where every single address gets a contextual offer.
My local comp went for several years without sending a single child to an RG University.
it also went for three terms without a permanent science teacher

Moving the admission timetable for University places will benefit people by making the system more transparent.
Getting rid of you have to have a personal statement^ will make it fairer.
Getting rid of what volunteering did you do will make it fairer.

The fact that when I was at Uni we got housing benefit in the summer holidays and were allowed to sign on
but now kids are not allowed to is the real scandal.

@ListeningQuietly the difference with medicine is that you really do have have to interview. It’s a vocational course with a job at the end of it , we are using it to staff our future NHS . I agree the focus on volunteering ridiculous but I also think that medics should not be recruited direct from school. I know too many miserable doctors who picked medicine at 18 with no real idea if the reality of a career in medicine. I think the way they do it in the US is much better with medicine being after your undergrad degree.

On the grades I agree it’s too blunt a tool but it’s also true that a lot more people take A levels than used to.There are a whole host of problems with our secondary education and exam system and I don’t agree that the universities should have to pick up the can for all of this, it is not their job to mitigate for a system which is fundamentally not fit for purpose.

PS
I'm not sure where the "get a job for 4 months" comes from.
Lots of the kids are already working shifts at the takeaways and supermarkets.
When they finish school they up their shifts for the summer
and drop them down when term starts
Sainsburys and Lidl even let them transfer to a different store if they go to Uni

“When I went to school, getting straight As at A level was incredibly rare like vanishingly

I agree with this, it was the same with my school in the early 90’s. Only 2 students in our school got 3 A’s at a level.

I don’t know much about the current system as we haven’t reached that point yet, but anecdotally it does seem that a large proportion of students achieve or are predicted that nowadays (3 A* or 3A).

I’m not sure if the young people I know of are all exceptionally bright or if getting these grades is more common now.

I expect this year to be tricky from a university perspective because more students may achieve their predicted/aspirational grade, so I’ve no idea how else the university can choose who to offer the limited number of places to unless looking at other criteria on the statement?

They must be the very lucky few as round here to get a job at s supermarket or similar you need to be fully flexible over 7 days. Dd has applied for so many jobs.

Comparing today with when we went to uni is a non starter because only 17% went then. Grades are not the same either. Fewer achieved top grades as they were awarded on a bell curve. If I'd like comparing apples to pears.

My premise remains the same , the evening out process should be to bring the same opportunities to those where they are not available rather than a race to the bottom as some would prefer.

If I'd = It is

@ListeningQuietky still missing the point about how an 18 year old leaving school may impact family finances in respect of benefits that parent loses or potentially even child maintenance. I know of a single parent family who basically once August kicked in list £500 to their already low income re no child maintenance, losing council tax discount, losing other tax credits based on them being an adult. I am well aware kids have jobs. All 3 if mine did through school and uni. In fact my youngest has 2. But it is not as easy as "get a job" for everyone. If you believe that to be the case well ....

I used to work in graduate recruitment for a large employer and there was a similar personal statement as part of that process. They used it to weed out who should be invited for interview because so many applied and all had very similar academic achievements. They marked the PS based on things like voluntary work, team work, positions of responsibility, relevant work experience etc. I did once (after company wide unconscious bias training) raise the issue of whether this favoured well off applicants - since most of those put through to interview had done a gap year/voluntary work in the holidays/work experience arranged via parents' friend in the business/spent years and £££ playing in sport teams etc. I was told I'd misunderstood. Then a few months later got in to an argument about whether looking after younger siblings in the summer holidays whilst parents were at work counted as a position of responsibility (apparently not- but being captain of the hockey team did!)

In reality- I think most of those who applied could have done the job, there just needed to be some way to narrow the search.

Season
But what has changing the University admission calendar got to do with benefits?

At present they finish school on the day of the last exam
and start Uni in mid September
that would not change

Tabitha
Medicine interviews - fair enough
but something is going badly wrong when so few of the successful students come from state schools

@SeasonFinale results are still awarded on a bell curve. Just a wider bell.

I feel exhausted reading this thread.

My dd never did any hobbies except gaming. He’s a journalist on national media now.

Dss was similar, he’s just completed a PhD and Cambridge are chasing him to be part of their team as his Phd research was highly unusual.

They both went to ‘new universities’

I think my dd would be very unhappy on a course with the captain of the rugger team. She’s got some social anxiety and doesn’t like sports or other stuff like that.

People can still get well ahead in life without being ‘a well rounded individual’ or being sporty. What about the introverts?

This thread is a bit like reading a load of over competitive nonsense. Teens develop at different rates.

I’m glad if universities are moving away from this middle class angst. It must be exhausting to have an entire course who’ve done Duke of Edinburgh, sports teams etc etc. Where do the misfits belong? I’ve been a teacher 25 years. The misfits and nerds are usually the most interesting. There’s room for every personality in this world. Not just enthusiastic sporty extroverts.

[quote SeasonFinale]@ListeningQuietky still missing the point about how an 18 year old leaving school may impact family finances in respect of benefits that parent loses or potentially even child maintenance. I know of a single parent family who basically once August kicked in list £500 to their already low income re no child maintenance, losing council tax discount, losing other tax credits based on them being an adult. I am well aware kids have jobs. All 3 if mine did through school and uni. In fact my youngest has 2. But it is not as easy as "get a job" for everyone. If you believe that to be the case well ....[/quote]
I don’t know how child benefit works as we don’t get it, but presumably it’s paid up until the “child” becomes an adult and finish their mandatory education?

Surely then, at 18, the child is then an adult and will be able to make their own claims for grants for further education if applicable or try to find work if not applicable?

Or should child benefit be paid until they’ve left full time education?

They can claim for grants and funding. But it’s all based on parental income.

@ListeningQuietly there is the difference between a "school holiday" length of time where support needs to be given than six months.

Yes @mumsneedwine generally thay 17% would be within the top grade part of the curve now with no differentiation between them. I suspect we may well see that there will be a move to increase the gcse grade upwards to a 10 and also a switch to 10-1 grades for A levels to differentiate between students and also to move away from the concept of cags and tags having devalued A*s (not my opinion but one bandied about).

I think the main thing we draw from this discussion is that we all agree there should be some form of evening the playing field even if we differ in how that can be done.

@SeasonFinale think if anyone dares try and change grading of syllabus in the next few years teachers will walk out. Too much change has happened too rapidly as it is.
Students should do things because they enjoy them. And fortunately Universities now recognise that not all opportunities are open to all students. Why most medical schools don't even read the PS. Having grade 8 is lovely but most poorer families could never afford the lessons this requires.
Best thing seems to be, as already said, a part time job

Is it unusual to expect a young person who has only just turned 18 to be financially supported by their parents until the end of their education and until they are able to get a job?

Yes the state helps with benefits and students loans etc but surely parents should have thought about this when they chose to have children?

If not then I don't think it's just the university access that needs to change

Back on topic just had a look at LSE's advise on personal statements