Where did the idea come from that extracurricular activities were important for university applications?

[Reallybadidea]

Was it ever true? I applied to universities in the 90s and throughout secondary, my parents were obsessed with me joining clubs, sports teams, DofE so that I'd "have something to put on my UCAS form to show that you're a well-rounded applicant". It still seems to be a popular belief on here that having grade A piano (for eg) will enhance your application.

I get that courses such as medicine, nursing etc need relevant work experience. But the other stuff? Is it/was it ever important?

I am not turning this into an us v them season. I do think, however,that lots of people really don't realise the dearth of in schol advice in many many average schools. MN is a far better source of advice (when filtered) than my schol would ever give.

There definitely are schools who invest in actual UCAS advisers : DS's is one.

At my school the HOSF writes all the references (we have 250 students in year 13!). The PS checking is totally ad hoc, given by form tutors (who barely know/meet the kids), the HOSF (who often gives rather dated advice) and potentially a subject teacher , if asked. Most of these (being typically in their 40s +) will have limited info about what unis want in a PS and so often give very bad advice. We certainly never have any training. We have no staff members (well, possibly two) who went to Oxbridge but are not an outreach school. It's all quite a thorny issue.

Should add also I think that extrovertism is now becoming less dominant - as the person above mentioned about people who hyper-focus on one thing - these people are now being seen as bringing value.

The trouble with 'well-rounded' is it can mean 'does a bit of everything moderately well but has no strengths' - many universities are actively moving towards focusing on strengths.

Oh, and yes re the PowerPoint and then that's it!

I read a very very very bale student's PS this year and it was awful. When I tactfully pointed this out, she said it was from the UniFrog template and the HOSF and her FT had said it was fine.

She also gave it to my colleague who didn't look it over and freely admitted to me that she had no idea what a PS 'should' be like.

I take an above average interest in this stuff so hope I am helpful to the students but I think I am literally one of a tiny handful of staff who is well informed and up to date. Most of our teachers proofread for errors and that's it.

able student! I need a proofreader too!

Piggy asked if the personal statement should be abolished.

I would say that it should be a tie breaker only
it should NEVER be a pre filter

So applications go in based on real grades in August, none of this predictions shit
The courses fill from the top
contextual offer systems that are algorithm based till continue
and only the last few stragglers will be differentiated by checking statements.

Much fairer
much clearer
gets rid of the coaching that goes on in too many places.

Stops prejudiced and bigoted tutors seeking out
people like us

Thankfully most of the courses my son will be applying to interview (audition) everyone who applies who has the predicted grades.

Hmmm, yes , post results application good. Although that in itself will never weed out all the issues. It has generally worked in Scotland, although UCAS PSs still exist there too!

Maybe stop rank ordering unis? (massive unlikely statement of the decade!)

I was probably quite grateful for the PS for DS1 as it made him sound a better, more interested person than his thoroughly lacklustre GCSE results suggested . On the flip side.

Well, yes, there is that. Ds's GCSE results are pretty awful.

Maybe stop rank ordering unis? (massive unlikely statement of the decade!)
Or maybe force Oxford and Cambridge to publish their student satisfaction data
as they would not be the top two if that happened

The comment you said Nope to @piggywaspushed was my describing what a private school would usually have so it is not a nope! just not what your school does. Indeed you have said it is your DS's school that does have specific UCAS advisers whereas I had said it was a common misconception that Indies have this as a resource. We have two people reference write for a similar number of applicants (but applying for "high level" unis so potentially more importance being placed on the references , but who really knows ? However you seem to be well aware that something is lacking in your school's set up surrounding UCAS applications. Have you attempted to address this at all out of interest? Surely interested and engaged teachers like yourself are the ones well placed to address this and help redress the imbalance and the unfairness.

As regards post qualification applications they have recently been addressed in a HEPI study. I will find and link the findings which suggest.that actually they are not as advantageous as envisioned for a whole host of reasons.

www.hepi.ac.uk/2021/03/18/new-hepi-report-demonstrates-that-moving-away-from-the-use-of-predicted-grades-in-university-admissions-could-harm-rather-than-benefit-fair-admissions/

This is what you said and I read it as meaning that you thought all school had UCAS advisors.

"When schools (even private schools) refer to UCAS Advisers you, as a teacher Piggy, should know this means a subject teacher within the school who will talk to the kids about applications relating to that subject. So in each department there will be a UCAS adviser who will discuss personal statements for that subject."

And Piggy said nope, that does not happen in many state schools. I concur that this is the case

And Piggy has already said what she does to try and help her students. But one teacher in a school of maybe 2000 students is a drop in the ointment especially when every second is accounted for.

State schools have to manage to educate each pupil on less than £5,000 per year

State 6th form colleges have to manage on around £3500 per year

Private school fees are a minimum of around £10,000 per year and maximum are around £35,000

The resource difference is enormous.

Even a BIG state 6th form that puts 50+ per year into Oxbridge and 800 a year into the Russell Group does not have UCAS advisers for every subject.

@jessstan2

The Higher Education bods like to know what their potential students are doing other than academic work. Someone with varied interests presents themselves better as an all round person.

It's the same before that up to a point; children applying to a new school are asked about hobbies and out of school activities.

But this is my point - it doesn't seem that this is the case any more, yet the myth persists. Why would 'higher education bods' care about someone's hobbies and whether they're "better as an all round person."? Why would it make them a better candidate?

That’s interesting Season Finale.

At Harvard looking for extracurriculars started as a more-or-less explicit way to keep the number of Jews down. It’s one hell of a story.

projects.iq.harvard.edu/expose/book/cloak-meritocracy-harvard’s-“new-plan”-admissions-and-“jewish-problem

@Comefromaway

This is what you said and I read it as meaning that you thought all school had UCAS advisors.

"When schools (even private schools) refer to UCAS Advisers you, as a teacher Piggy, should know this means a subject teacher within the school who will talk to the kids about applications relating to that subject. So in each department there will be a UCAS adviser who will discuss personal statements for that subject."

And Piggy said nope, that does not happen in many state schools. I concur that this is the case

In that case I apologise if I was not clear - Piggy alluded to the fact that UCAS Advisers were separate employees employed specifically for one task. I referred to them and should have perhaps used inverted commas to say that most of these mythical "ucas" advisers would be subject teachers. I perhaps should also have clarified they are generally asked to read through a statement for a student and very much a proof read and looking for glaringly obvious errors rather than saying to away and read Said on Orientalism type advice. I think some school ask form tutors to perform those tasks ie proofread.

Indeed Piggy goes on to refer to a state school that does employ actual UCAS advisers.

I also agree with your previous comment about the comment from a PP saying that unis look for well rounded people based on extra curricular and how discriminatory in nature this can be. If any uni is still doing that they should be named and shamed!

This article is old but very interesting and worth a read.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2012/jan/10/how-cambridge-admissions-really-work

I glanced through the HEPI article and didn't find a reason that post qualification application disadvantages students. But it may made admin problems for Uni staff

Wonder how they manage in Australia? Does anyone know?

The problem is that for universities which are hugely oversubscribed just selecting on grades alone is very difficult . Durham has over 100:1 applications for ds subject this year apparently . It also knows that a high proportion will firm it as first choice . They also have the limitation that unlike say Bristol they guarantee all first years accommodation and it has to fit the small geography of Durham and people expect to be in a college so numbers are very tight.

At the open day for his subject they said the most important thing is that you needed to have a minimum of at least one A* predicted otherwise the algorithm would sift you out ( unless you were in the contextual pile ) . But apart from that if you say that 99 /100 have the grades and all 8s and 9s at GCSE how do you distinguish .

My ds had no reference at all to extra curricular in his PS although I know his school reference did . He and another person in his year applied for 4/5 of the same universities for the same subject . They both got in, on the same day, to all of the other three , but only one of them to Durham.

Who knows why they picked him, the other applicant had a lot more extra curricular on their statement of a very high quality but it obviously didn’t make a difference. My ds is interested in a slightly more unusual aspect of his subject though, a bit quirky, and he discussed this in his PS, maybe they just remembered it for that reason.

@Comefromaway

And Piggy has already said what she does to try and help her students. But one teacher in a school of maybe 2000 students is a drop in the ointment especially when every second is accounted for.

I am sure she does help those she has contact with and can help. I was meaning had she taken this issue further up the chain to SMT to say there is a problem that needs addressing?

It's an American thing isn't it? You are likely to do a liberal arts degree before specialising.

I think it also depends on the course, Loughborough is well known for sporting facilities and offers a foundation year for elite athletes who don't have the academic qualifications to start uni in year one.

I do wonder what Malala Yousefsi put on her personal statement. Fought for female rights, studied in my second language, won a
Nobel prize, wrote a best selling book, mentored younger students...

There is a very interesting American Life podcast in the problems that US universities are having especially with reference to the SATs and ‘test optional’ and ingrained bias. Also because US colleges are often bound by the level of fees they need to get in .

Worth a listen

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/this-american-life/id201671138?i=1000513879718

Chopc - One of the reasons is that less privileged students cannot afford to take the time off were it to switch to a results August and January start with the lack of child benefit, often classed as another adult in the household so loss of council tax discounts and so on.

There is alreadt an issue where those less privileged won't apply to higher ranked unis as not the place for us but are persuaded to apply and get offers and are sometimes accepted on dropped grades. There is the issue that if they achieve the dropped grades they won't apply and it then leaves the unis only taking those with higher grades. I don't mean those entitled to contextual offers but often those that slip into the middle.