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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Where did the idea come from that extracurricular activities were important for university applications?

266 replies

Reallybadidea · 29/03/2021 08:59

Was it ever true? I applied to universities in the 90s and throughout secondary, my parents were obsessed with me joining clubs, sports teams, DofE so that I'd "have something to put on my UCAS form to show that you're a well-rounded applicant". It still seems to be a popular belief on here that having grade A piano (for eg) will enhance your application.

I get that courses such as medicine, nursing etc need relevant work experience. But the other stuff? Is it/was it ever important?

OP posts:
ListeningQuietly · 30/03/2021 15:00

Philippa
They also reserve places for Legacy students
Guaranteed to exclude all but rich Christian whites

RavingAnnie · 30/03/2021 15:02

@LostInTime

I applied to university in the 90s, my parents had absolutely no part in the process. I paid the UCCA and PCAS application fees myself. No-one mentioned any extra-curricular things were important. If you did any, they could be put in the personal statement.
This was my experience too. I had absolutely no guidance and applied for unis I had no hope of getting into. I had no guidance about doing extra curricular activities.

Parents were not involved at all in the process at my school. This was early 90s.

TheJerkStore · 30/03/2021 15:03

Schools also have to have daily assembly.
They don't.

Careers guidance and the schools progress towards meeting The Gatsby Benchmarks now forms part of an Ofsted inspection. The recent Skills for Jobs white paper recommends strengthening this and using Ofsted to undertake a full thematic review of careers education and guidance ion schools and colleges.

My point about getting Private schools to share resources is that
once the careers team have helped their kids
they can take a day a week to help the local kids.

A day a week? That's not nearly enough to offer all young people from year 8 upwards access to a career guidance interview at key transition points ( the current statutory guidance) let alone do everything else a careers adviser does.

Its also tricky where 6th form and GCSE are not on the same site
the careers teams are not in the secondary schools at all.

Why is this tricky? Lots of careers advisers work across multiple sites. In HE you have people working across multiple campuses.

Asking for things to be properly funded is meaningless unless you have the right people to hire.

There is a skills shortage of qualified careers advisers but funding is key.

The careers team at Winchester College are clearly highly effective
so sharing that expertise should be a no brainer

You're assuming they have the time! Most careers advisers I know don't have enough time to see all their own students let alone offer their services to other schools/colleges!

Lollipop888 · 30/03/2021 15:05

“ This was my experience too. I had absolutely no guidance and applied for unis I had no hope of getting into. ”

Same here, I applied to unis which were not appropriate for my predicted grades as I did not understand the process at all. Got no offers and had to go through clearing!

PhillippaPink · 30/03/2021 15:18

@ListeningQuietly

Philippa They also reserve places for Legacy students Guaranteed to exclude all but rich Christian whites
LOL, how could I forget the legacy admissions? If you met someone with the same last name as a building on campus, pretty much guaranteed to be an idiot.
dameofdilemma · 30/03/2021 15:32

I nearly dropped my cup of tea after reading all the 'well rounded' comments on here.

If only 'sports team/grade 8 music etc' really did demonstrate a future ability to work in a team or collaborate or a work ethic. If only.

The reality is (as anyone who has recruited in an environment flooded with applicants from RG unis can tell you) - the captain of the rugby team can be just as hopeless a trainee lawyer/accountant/banker etc as the candidate with no sports/music etc.
(The girl who spent a large part of her childhood in war torn Somalia however was stellar, as an aside).

Its very very difficult to teach self sufficiency, work ethic, independent thinking, humility.

Its also difficult to teach someone who's used to being the apple of their parents/teachers eye that they are no longer Head Boy/Girl and they need to knuckle down and learn.

Often its candidates who have had to overcome genuine difficulties independently (without tutors/sports coaches etc) who show talent in the work place.

Choccyp1g · 30/03/2021 15:37

@RampantIvy

I can easily believe it *@chopc*. I sat through a number of subject talks with DD when she was going through the application process. One admissions tutor for biomedical sciences stated this during the talk. We visited the same university a year later for a campus and accommodation tour, and were lucky to get an hour and a half of the same tutor's time to ourselves. He repeated that he doesn't read personal statements unless the student's grades are borderline.

I expect they do for more competitive courses like medicine, and Oxbridge certainly do.

For maths at Oxford DS was told that interviews depend on your score in the MAT, and his interview consisted solely of talking through maths problems. He had no extracurricular anything to put on the statement, it was all about his favourite maths topics.
SeasonFinale · 30/03/2021 15:46

Indie here whose careers advice I(from the advisor) is not all that. However, they do have good teachers who can steer them to the right places for it. We do have a careers fair that is open to all schools in the area. And obviously participants are predominantly parents who are in various professions. However, having said that it may be more narrow than careers fairs being run in other schools.

We actually do have a pretty good record for community access to all sorts of programmes thankfully.

SeasonFinale · 30/03/2021 15:49

@dameofdilemma yes in a past life when helping with the recruitment of trainees I gave more credence to those that had worked a series of crap jobs than those that had spent a week at quite often Dad's mate's company. It shows an element of commitment to have gotten up, got to a place on time, worked in sometimes not great jobs and worked for your own cash.

DeRigueurMortis · 30/03/2021 15:56

I think some people get confused about the difference between extra-curricular activities and super-curricular activities.

The former have definitely fallen out of favour in whilst the latter are important.

EC activities (as pp's have already commented) tend to be reflective not of academic ability but socio-economic opportunity and have been found to have little bearing as a predictor of under graduate attainment.

SC activities on the other hand tend (though to be fair are not always) to be more widely accessible and demonstrate both interest and motivation in the subject matter that does tend to translate into a more reliable barometer of potential academic success.

However I think there's a wide misunderstanding of the difference between the two.

DS's personal statement had one sentence on EC activities but SC activities featured prominently.

(SC btw means activities directly related to the degree, so for example could be voluntary work at a vets/hospital for veterinary or medical students, being on the schools maths team for a mathematician, reading books on the subject outside the curriculum, following/listening to academics on social media etc)

Phphion · 30/03/2021 16:07

@SeasonFinale

I had typed out a thought I had which clearly my phone thought was crap and decided to delete it Grin

What about if instead of a personal statement there was an application form along the lines of the unifrog one with sections that could include supra curricular, extra curricular, sections for medics and the unis could say which sections they would use, which they would ignore, whether they use as a tiebreak only or use holistically or not at all. That way people would be able to see what clearly what they were looking for and ensure they applied to unis that cherished their strengths . As I said a random thought and I am sure there may be a reason why it wouldn't work, but probably not less so that the current PS?

The trouble is, as has been noted here, different courses use the personal statement differently.

For the course I teach on and was previously the admissions tutor for, we are not really interested in knowing what someone has done. We do not go through the forms ticking off whether someone has done DoE or won an essay competition.

What we are interested in and are looking for is what someone has done with whatever information or experience they have chosen to tell us about. We are looking for evidence that they can think critically and holistically about it and reflect upon how it has developed their thinking, their interest in the subject and what they have done to build on this initial spark of interest or would propose to do in the future.

We look for those things primarily because they are skills they need to succeed on the course.

But we are also very aware that different people have different resources available to them, whether these resources are money, time, support from their school or their family or just general knowledge of what opportunities exist to pursue their interests. So we try to level the playing field.

If someone can tell us clearly and convincingly how watching YouTube videos or even the old chestnut 'socialising' has made them think about issues related to the subject they want to study, how they have reflected and sought to develop their thinking further and more academically, these things have absolutely equal value to someone telling us those things about their year spent feeding orphans.

We provide quite extensive advice on completing the personal statement, but really the best advice is encapsulated in one line within it - be interested, be interesting.

Once we have cut the people who are too far from getting the grades we ask for or who don't meet other hard criteria, we still need to make decisions about well over 1,000 perfectly clever and perfectly capable applicants, and we need to reject around 60% of those perfectly clever and perfectly capable applicants who would almost certainly do perfectly well on the course if we were to accept them. Being the 367th person who informs us they have done DoE or the 459th piano player does not, in isolation, make you either interested or interesting enough.

LizziesTwin · 30/03/2021 16:33

Dds private school provided UCAS guidance to the local state schools and students from those schools could go to talks at lunchtime, had interview practice etc. They also used the school’s pool & sports facilities. In the summer the school held camps for students from state schools. Students also volunteered at the local state junior schools helping with reading.

Re volunteering being expensive: what about students running clubs within the school for younger children or working in the school library?

alwayslearning789 · 30/03/2021 17:28

Going at a different angle here, but it is what it does for your child and not just necessarily for the University Personal Statement:

Example: I've got a young man on my team, recently joined, who doesn't bat an eyelid at a gruelling deadline or a challenging task - I don't think it's a coincidence - he spent years doing competitive swimming, waking at 4am to practice, competitions, priorities with his studies etc

My dc couldn't stand Violin at primary.. spent hours practising just to get one right note. Fast forward 10 years later Violin in the bin but oh my god will they not let it lie of they can't figure out something! Helped with the Maths at which they were mediocre but somehow managed an A grade!

I'm all for extra curricular activities - they assist the child in many ways.

DeRigueurMortis · 30/03/2021 17:40

@alwayslearning789

Going at a different angle here, but it is what it does for your child and not just necessarily for the University Personal Statement:

Example: I've got a young man on my team, recently joined, who doesn't bat an eyelid at a gruelling deadline or a challenging task - I don't think it's a coincidence - he spent years doing competitive swimming, waking at 4am to practice, competitions, priorities with his studies etc

My dc couldn't stand Violin at primary.. spent hours practising just to get one right note. Fast forward 10 years later Violin in the bin but oh my god will they not let it lie of they can't figure out something! Helped with the Maths at which they were mediocre but somehow managed an A grade!

I'm all for extra curricular activities - they assist the child in many ways.

It's a good point and I don't think people are suggesting EC activities are without value.

They are however not a prerequisite nor a barrier (for lack thereof) to a Uni education, something I feel is eminently fair given the socio-economic barriers many students face in having the opportunity to participate in such activities.

Fairyfield · 30/03/2021 17:42

The advice my DC were given was to make their personal statement personal. Two of mine wrote about their super curricular activities in their opening paragraph as a way of discussing their interest in the chosen subject.

DD has just got a place at the LSE and only mentioned one book in her PS but she linked podcasts, documentaries and other articles to her scholarly interest in the subject.

If PS are not looked at, why are they not optional or stated as no PS required on the key requirements?

Do universities read the school reference? If they are not, it would save school staff so much time.

I agree, applications to university should be post-results and only 3 choices.

Comefromaway · 30/03/2021 17:50

Do schools still have libraries? Ds’s sold all their books at the summer gayer and turned the space into a learning resource centre (computers). Access is limited to specific groups at a time.

MarchingFrogs · 30/03/2021 17:58

Do schools still have libraries?

The (3 different) schools that ours have attended for sixth form certainly still do; DS2 was a 'student librarian' for most of his time up to GCSEs . One of the (staff) librarians has been an enormous influence on his decision re what to study at university, as well.

fizbosshoes · 30/03/2021 18:03

This was my experience too. I had absolutely no guidance and applied for unis I had no hope of getting into. I had no guidance about doing extra curricular activities.

Parents were not involved at all in the process at my school. This was early 90s.

I did not go to uni, but my Dsis went in the late 1990s. My parents had no more idea about UCAS forms than the man in the moon. Neither had been to uni and the only family member who had, lived abroad. I remember when I was at college there was a special form for Oxbridge but none of us had any concept of RG universities or that there was any difference between courses, or that some were super competitive to get into.

SeasonFinale · 30/03/2021 18:06

@Comefromaway

Do schools still have libraries? Ds’s sold all their books at the summer gayer and turned the space into a learning resource centre (computers). Access is limited to specific groups at a time.
Gosh that is awful. Ours still has quite an extensive one that staff can access too. Indeed in the staff room there is a display that is changed weekly too. Have they perhaps switched to a digital library instead? Ours runs as both.
SeasonFinale · 30/03/2021 18:09

@fizbosshoes

This was my experience too. I had absolutely no guidance and applied for unis I had no hope of getting into. I had no guidance about doing extra curricular activities.

Parents were not involved at all in the process at my school. This was early 90s.

I did not go to uni, but my Dsis went in the late 1990s. My parents had no more idea about UCAS forms than the man in the moon. Neither had been to uni and the only family member who had, lived abroad. I remember when I was at college there was a special form for Oxbridge but none of us had any concept of RG universities or that there was any difference between courses, or that some were super competitive to get into.

Mainly because fewer people went and the polys were still polys, techs still techs etc. The competitive ones nowadays are the more established ones from then (along with a few notable exceptions). The less competitive ones nowadays tend to be the ex-poly s etc . So this takes us back to having a wider range of options and paths available rather than trying to make one size fit all.
RampantIvy · 30/03/2021 18:10

The library at DD's school was in an open area and was noisy. It was small and didn't have many books. Some of the trouble makers used to hang around the library. It wasn't worth having IMO.

ListeningQuietly · 30/03/2021 18:14

alwayslearning
Your swimming lad clearly had HIGHLY motivated parents with the money to get him to those meets and training.

It is really important for Uni admissions people to realise that parents without two cars and an unlimited fuel budget cannot even consider letting their kids take up such sports.

Financial exclusion is insidious

  • the assumption that families can afford to buy a laptop
  • the assumption that families can afford to pay for study materials and equipment
I have just reviewed my child's accounts, hall fees took up all but £130 of their termly mtce loan and we are NOT high earners
  • the assumption that kids can travel long distance for interviews

And neither of mine got ANY careers advice about subjects in Secondary school
(because everybody went on to college - it was not the school's problem)

TheJerkStore · 30/03/2021 18:28

And neither of mine got ANY careers advice about subjects in Secondary school
(because everybody went on to college - it was not the school's problem)

That statutory guidance changed in 2018.
It absolutely is the schools problem now as they need to report on student destinations for 3 years after after year 11.

It is taking some schools and colleges time to catch up with the statutory requirements but things are slowly starting to improve.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 30/03/2021 18:35

I never batted an eyelid at a challenging deadline or gruelling task. I was an excellent worker.

I spent most of my late teens hanging round Goth clubs. I was going to bed at 4:00 am not getting up at that time.

Still managed to hold down a very demanding job for most of my life.

RampantIvy · 30/03/2021 18:57

But not everyone is like you @ArseInTheCoOpWindow.

What you or I did when we were young is irrelevant.