Where did the idea come from that extracurricular activities were important for university applications?

[Reallybadidea]

Was it ever true? I applied to universities in the 90s and throughout secondary, my parents were obsessed with me joining clubs, sports teams, DofE so that I'd "have something to put on my UCAS form to show that you're a well-rounded applicant". It still seems to be a popular belief on here that having grade A piano (for eg) will enhance your application.

I get that courses such as medicine, nursing etc need relevant work experience. But the other stuff? Is it/was it ever important?

My DS is a lifeguard and now swim coach, he has paid for all the training himself. His ps didn't include any of this or the fact he plays County/country level waterpolo. He goes to a state local comp. Most of his peers in yr 13 had part time jobs until everything shut again so hobbies and jobs are not just for the elitist few. For his course ( economics) he felt it wasn't relative so didnt mention them.

Super-curricular definitely not just a public school word, piggy. My boys' non-selective state school introduced the concept in Year 12: we got a letter explaining the idea and giving examples.

DH works in a different non-selective school and they talk about the idea a lot with the 6th formers, especially those in the early application (Oxbridge, medicine, veterinary) groups.

I think it's pretty new though. I never heard it a few years back when I was working in a school.

Incidentally my sons were among those rejected by Durham (though one was accepted by Oxford) and they both got an explanatory sentence on Track saying the reason was weaker personal statement.

Their PSs were exclusively subject related, and seen as strong by their school. DH and I have both read a good few PSs and were also confident that theirs were good.

So we were left concluding that either:

a) the extracurricular stuff did matter for Durham - I've since seen on their website that they claim it does - and it disadvantaged my sons not to put it down

or b) Durham just has a few standard rejection sentences, and they chose that one because they couldn't realistically say it was down to academic achievement as our sons have all but one grade 9 at GCSE (and A* predictions).

This was for Humanities courses, not anything vocational.

So we were left a bit confused. The boys' school and DH's school advise those applying to Oxbridge and other 'top' universities to omit extracurricular activities and to focus on academic stuff, but we wonder if our two should have stuck in a sentence or two, just for Durham?

I do wish, whatever the case, that universities were clear and in agreement about this, and communicated that to schools. Tbf Oxford, Cambridge, LSE etc. do (subject only) and that message has got through. But tricky if a few others (well, Durham - didn't count against my sons elsewhere) mark you down for that.

Did they import it from a private schol though loon? Your use of non selective state to me implies (maybe incorrectly) you may live in an urban area where there are more opportunities? Where I live , no one uses the terms selective, super selective, non selective either! I teach sociology : my class did not even know academic selection was a thing, bless their socks.

I just asked DS (year 12) if he had ever heard of it . he tried to figure it out but he certainly had not heard of it.

He reads beyond his subject and watches documentaries etc. : but the main reason he has the books and knows where to look is his middle class teacher mum (it's me that found out about the Sheffield uni lectures, not his schol, who actually try harder than most having encouraged applications to a UCL summer school). Super curricular is not a class and affluence free idea any more than extra curricular is (or co curricular , whatever that means!)

I don't know what a solution could be , other than getting rid of personal statements which i couldn't see happening.

It also sounds like you DCs' schol and DH's school are high achieving and might have specialist UCAS advisers, which schools by me don't have. I absolutely think they should and have made this abundantly clear to my own schol, but they will keep ignoring me while we don't have a glut of Oxbridge/medical bound students (which is a rather chicken egg thing I guess but your average state comp may not see this as a priority over other matters). It does mean the ones who have got into Oxbridge from my school are proper self starters, though!

Sorry to hear about your DS's Durham experience btw. I absolutely agree that unis need to be more opaque : it's easy to blame schools for rubbish advice but - as I said - schools have many things to focus on. The PS seems to have become another one of those arcane 'you need to know our rules to get in' thing and I find that sad and annoying in equal measure. There are also a lot of myths which confuse young people , ranging from 'unis don't read it' to 'you need specially tailored ones' ; 'don't include extra curricular ' to 'make sure you do'.

Re DofE - it costs a fair bit of money - for the trips and a LOT of time.
For kids without parents to pick them up from school at odd times it is not an option
my kids went to a state comp and it was very clear which kids were not able to do it because of home resources

Personal statements are ignored by many top courses at top Unis
because its grades that matter

The excess of comments about Oxbridge and Durham on this thread shows exactly why the PS system is so exclusive

The other thing I can't see why they would care about is what your ambitions are for a career but that often gets bunged in.

This is from UCAS's own PS writing guide :
Include any clubs or societies you belong to – sporting, creative, or musical.
Mention any relevant employment experience or volunteering you’ve done, such as vInspired Awards, Step Together, or Project Trust.
If you’ve developed skills through Duke of Edinburgh, ASDAN, National Citizen Service, the Crest Awards scheme, or young enterprise, tell them.

LQ I sort of agree re Dof E at some schools. Our PP budget would fund disadvantaged students and we do all the Bronze and silver stuff in schol time and ferry kids backwards and forwards in a minibus. I am just saying it is less elite than was perhaps being suggested.

I do think the fact that it builds in volunteering is helpful to kids who might otherwise have no resources. Not many students get on to Gold so it is a marker of tenacity if students get that far. At my place it tends to be geography students. It probably is true that walking, hiking and climbing are middle class pursuits.

I say this as someone who would rather saw their leg off than do D of E!

I honestly don't know where /why the idea has crept in, piggy. Agree it's definitely no more context-free than extracurricular and that DH and I, as middle class parents, have bought books, recommended podcasts, etc.

My sons' school is a small town comprehensive school. Tbf I don't think I've used terms like non-selective irl as our area is entirely comprehensive schools with a couple of independents - it was just to give more context on here.

DH is at a very large urban comprehensive in an area with significant deprivation, so his school does a lot for the students: in normal times, plenty of university visits, speakers, after school classes, tonnes of trips etc.

Our sons' local school is pretty middle class, as is our town generally, and they coast along not doing all that much beyond the classroom except sport!

Would you egt rid of the PS LQ? How would unis then select if they have masses of candidates with the required grades? The PS has been around a long time so I am assuming they can't think of anything better.

I am pretty sure the school references our school churns out are conveyor belt crap and would be worse than no PS.

That all sounds familiar to my area loon. My school is the coasting middle class (generally) one you describe; DS's is a bit more deprived and has issues with uni progression so more is done. Schools in London definitely get a real proper leg up. I think it is the backwaters and the coastal towns where real lack of aspiration, inspiration and support are huge issue.

Tbf I don't think I've used terms like non-selective irl as our area is entirely comprehensive schools with a couple of independents - it was just to give more context on here.

We adapt to use MN lingo!

Some advice here:

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/dec/12/how-to-write-a-personal-statement-for-university-by-admissions-tutors

Again, hobbies and clubs are mentioned and no suggestion (form Loughborough) that they don't really read them. The key seems to be saying how those hobbies feed into or complement your studies and skills.

I like this from Bath :

www.bath.ac.uk/guides/writing-a-personal-statement-for-an-undergraduate-course/

When schools (even private schools) refer to UCAS Advisers you, as a teacher Piggy, should know this means a subject teacher within the school who will talk to the kids about applications relating to that subject. So in each department there will be a UCAS adviser who will discuss personal statements for that subject. It is not a mythical person employed solely to do UCAS applications and is different to UCAS Advisers (agents) employed by international students to get advice on obtaining places here. There is a real misconception sometimes in what "help" is given and it may genuinely surprise some people that it is not as much as you believe it to be. It may be that in other schools the student may not have access to a subject teacher and merely uses their form tutor but this would surely be more unusual the having a subject teacher looking it over.

Further within our local community we would not refer to a school as being super selective/semiselective etc either. However on a Mumsnet education thread we do differentiate so that it gives context to the conversation we are having amongst ourselves. I can sit here and say how many Oxbridge/Imperial/LSE /DURHAM offers we get but it means bugger all without the context of the type of school so I can't see the problem with people stating this information.

To a PP - as regards to not believing unis do not read personal statements one example you can easily check for yourselves is Bristol. Take a look at their history criteria, set out specifically in addition to entry requirements. The applications are scored based on a weighting of 30%/70% gcses (using the best 8 gcses) and A level predicted grades/grades in hand. They use these scores to make offers and at an admissions talk explained they know from historic data how many offers/students they take at the varying scores and thus know which can get instant offers and which are held. They specifically state that the personal statements are only read in tie break situations. I flag them because they are very open about this on their website so a good place for any doubters to check this is the case. There will be others that use a similar method but who are not so transparent from the outset.

The usefulness of threads like these are to dispel myths and help those that may not realise times have indeed moved on and what is needed nowadays.

The advice we give is that, other than for med and similar where work experience should be threaded throughout the personal statement a brief, short paragraph detailing extra curricular at the end linking it to skills that may be required for the type of degree if any.

It is such a shame that so many of these threads descend into a them v us when there is a real chance for collaboration of experience which could help people.

@Piggywaspushed

I am not disputing what is being said about personal statements but would just like to stick my oar in about DofE. It is being spoken of as if it is some bastion of the privileged. It is offered through schools and available to all. It gives many students from less affluent backgrounds opportunities to experience things they would never otherwise do (and builds in volunteering). This was precisely its mission statement. It may not be directly helpful to a PS but it can build confidence and add to life experiences (and inform interests for uni application?). It would be lovely if music lessons were equally accessible too.

Even things like 'super curricular' (I have never heard this work d outside MN so suspect it in itself may be a public school word? It is not one any kids at my school would recognise) and just being able to volunteer are not easily accessible to all. If you live in a backwater village with no public transport, for example. I find the ones who do volunteering have parents who ferry them around. Way fewer sixth formers have jobs these days than used to (not actually a bad things as many of ours used to work in pubs til all hours) and the ones who do are often form more affluent backgrounds, in my experience.

I think the bias of UCAS itself can show through : UCAS points for music exams at grade 6 plus but no UCAS points for FA coaching badges which also require study.

Is the reason for the no UCAS points for FA coaching badges due to the fact that you have to be 18 years old to begin Level 3 so the coaching badges that a typical 16 year old will study for is Level 2, hence the FA found it not worth while to apply to join the curriculum framework.

Equally my dd gets no UCAS points from her Adv 1 dance exams because they are Level 4.

D of E is definitely not available in all schools. I giess it's to do with availability of teachers to run it and the ability of parents to afford the it involved.

And you can only be captain of a rugby team etc or play in the orchestra if your school actually has a rugby team/orchestra. At my son's school (he left last year) choir was actually a small group of the kids (my son included) who get together themselves to stay behind after school to rehearse mostly musical theatre based songs. The music teacher used to help but he got cancer and has only returned to work on a reduced timetable. The school show is totally student directed.

But I definitely know the concept of supra curricular. My son is doing his best to network and get opportunities. He wants to study music and so he has "followed" several industry people on instagram. he watches and discusses podcasts in specific areas he is interested in and by posting various videos of him playing has managed to blag invitations to sit in on theatre pit bands once they return social distancing allowing. (He has already done so pre-covid). He's tried to get a part time job but his autism means he finds it difficult to get through the application process and he doesn't always come across well at interview.

I dread him having to write his personal statement. He finds such things very difficult but he could discuss his music all day face to face.

The Higher Education bods like to know what their potential students are doing other than academic work. Someone with varied interests presents themselves better as an all round person.

It's the same before that up to a point; children applying to a new school are asked about hobbies and out of school activities.

Yeah, I can see in music all of that massively matters.

I think I am in a very DofE area . My school has won awards for being the state school with the most DofE participants (teachers used to apply because of this once upon a time), although it is waning so , yes, I accept it isn't universally representative but I still don't think DofE in and of itself is elitist.

I know exactly what you mean come in everything you say. I think here is a massive lack of level playing field and it really is a persistent issue in the UK (maybe not so much Scotland).

I think the 'super' curricular stuff is more obvious in music? No one would apply for music without having done some extra stuff. But this, in itself , has led to issues with inclusivity as I know you are aware.

One of my children was applying recently and at every open day we attended the admissions person said - we don't really care about your personal statement and whether you have been captain of the hockey club, we want to know about why you chose the subject, why you want to study the subject and that you will be good at the subject!

Hopefully the widening participation agenda is starting to filter through - universities risk missing out on talented poorer people if they let themselves be distracted by busy CVs.

So in each department there will be a UCAS adviser who will discuss personal statements for that subject

Nope!

@jessstan2

The Higher Education bods like to know what their potential students are doing other than academic work. Someone with varied interests presents themselves better as an all round person.

It's the same before that up to a point; children applying to a new school are asked about hobbies and out of school activities.

Which is discriminatory on so many levels.

It's discriminatory to those from low income families, with caring responsibilities and to those with disabilities. Many autistic people hyper focus on one thing, that could be the thing they are choosing to study. The fact that my kids do not have varied interests do not make them lesser people, it makes them better at what they have chosen to focus on.

Someone with varied interests presents themselves better as an all round person a person with wealthy parents

@Piggywaspushed

So in each department there will be a UCAS adviser who will discuss personal statements for that subject

Nope!

From experience at ds's old school (he left to go to college) the kids get a power point presentation in form time as part of the general phse programme then their form tutor checks over their personal statement.

My husband who teaches in higher education actually gave guidance to a friend of ds's who was applying for his subject as no-one at the school could give him any help.

I mean don't get me wrong, I'm massively proud of the fact that dd took part in an international model united nations programme and was one of the only ever british kids to be accepted to speak at the opening ceremony and co-chair a committee but I'm under no illusion she was able to go because we could afford to pay for it.