Where did the idea come from that extracurricular activities were important for university applications?

[Reallybadidea]

Was it ever true? I applied to universities in the 90s and throughout secondary, my parents were obsessed with me joining clubs, sports teams, DofE so that I'd "have something to put on my UCAS form to show that you're a well-rounded applicant". It still seems to be a popular belief on here that having grade A piano (for eg) will enhance your application.

I get that courses such as medicine, nursing etc need relevant work experience. But the other stuff? Is it/was it ever important?

My understanding is that most (all?) universities give special consideration to students who have been in foster care, FWIW. It's one of a number of recognised circumstances where allowances are made to reflect how much those candidates have had to overcome, isn't it?

That is a good example

A lot of engineers I know (they run in the family ) are very single minded, can focus on a tiny thing (as long as it’s engineering related). .... almost the opposite of well-rounded?! Some are dyslexic snd/or on the spectrum too.

I've just applied for a specialty job within medicine at a high ish level. They still ask me about things outside work, extra curricular achievements and what I've learnt from them that's applicable to my day to day job.

It's not about having them per se, but what you can prove you learnt from doing them. My post grade 8 diploma in piano proved 1. I have the manual dexterity to perform challenging technical procedures

1. I have the ability to manage my time appropriately and meet deadlines, stay organised etc
2. Know how to wind down after a busy day and manage my stress (I genuinely do turn to the piano for this!)
3. Demonstrate my teaching skills
4. Prove I am used to performing under pressure; audiences, exams, without music in front of me etc

It can be anything, baking to volunteering at a dogs charity- they don't care. They just need to see examples for each of the skills required on my job specification and extra curricular activities are a great way to demonstrate them.

@PrintempsAhoy

That is a good example

A lot of engineers I know (they run in the family ) are very single minded, can focus on a tiny thing (as long as it’s engineering related). .... almost the opposite of well-rounded?! Some are dyslexic snd/or on the spectrum too.

Both engineers/scientists and dyslexics run in my family! I'm the black sheep - only dyslexic.

@allatracurious, vocational degrees/jobs are different, as lots of people have said.

You aren't wrong @PrintempsAhoy. Apparently maths and physics have a higher proportion of students on the ASD spectrum than other subjects.

How depressing. Good grades do not necessarily mean good doctors, scientists, writers or engineers. If all unis are interested in is grades and don't even read the personal statement, how do they know that that particular student is a good match for the University? How do they tell one AAA student from another? Surely knowing more about the student would help inform their decision. Otherwise it is just a lottery.
And I don't buy that it would weed out certain types- they already know what school you went to.
As for having an unfair advantage if you have a grade 8 in piano or a gold D of E - surely the University admissions teams can appreciate the levels of opportunities available across the socio economic scale. It makes those children even more worthy of a place if they have had to deal with disadvantages and still earn top grades and participate in sport or whatever - it shows motivation, determination and ability, surely what universities are looking for? However, I wouldn't discriminate against a child if they did come from a background where things were more accessible - they still have to earn the grades and do all that extracurricular activities. I do not accept they have 'an easy ride'.
Should the admissions be blind? The students assigned a number with their (predicted) results only? No indication of race, gender, or economic background? This may work for purely academic course, but creative degrees?
As universities, even those offering the same degree, would surely say they have a unique offering compared to other universities, so are students, and there has to be more to them than three letters.

@SarahAndQuack

My understanding is that most (all?) universities give special consideration to students who have been in foster care, FWIW. It's one of a number of recognised circumstances where allowances are made to reflect how much those candidates have had to overcome, isn't it?

I’ve never been told to. The applications go through admissions first to make sure they have enough ucas points predicted, maybe it’s something at that stage. 🤷‍♀️ Then they come to me as the academic to decide if they get an interview.......I’ve never been told to show foster care applicants any special consideration.

A student is not being 'discriminated against' if a place goes to someone better who doesn't have grade 8 piano.

Cross post. @CovidCorvid - I've never had to either, but they're all vetted beforehand by admissions, and I thought it was the norm. As I said, could be I'm wrong and it's not everyone.

So, a bright student who has no hobbies shouldn't go to university then?

I’ve been at admission talks given by a Cambridge admissions officer saying they don’t care what you do in your spare time, they just want you to be good at subject x.

Universities cannot discriminate against poorer students so have to disregard irrelevant extra curricular for all. This is fair.

Completely different in the US where they are looking at the whole person, not just academics.

I don't believe that universities don't read the personal statement. I think this year it was especially important to differentiate students

However I agree in UK extracurriculars are not so important for uni but supracurriculars are (those relevant to their interested subject)

Whether they are important at all is another discussion

I can easily believe it @chopc. I sat through a number of subject talks with DD when she was going through the application process. One admissions tutor for biomedical sciences stated this during the talk. We visited the same university a year later for a campus and accommodation tour, and were lucky to get an hour and a half of the same tutor's time to ourselves. He repeated that he doesn't read personal statements unless the student's grades are borderline.

I expect they do for more competitive courses like medicine, and Oxbridge certainly do.

@chopc

I don't believe that universities don't read the personal statement. I think this year it was especially important to differentiate students

However I agree in UK extracurriculars are not so important for uni but supracurriculars are (those relevant to their interested subject)

Whether they are important at all is another discussion

It really depends on the subject (and university).

I work at a university and there are a number of courses which are dealt with by an automatic admissions process and personal statements aren't read. However, if a student is borderline come results day then they might get read.

If a course is competitive and requires certain subjects or work experience then a personal statement is very important.

As per TSR and other threads here students have been rejected from Durham, imperial and LSE due to their personal statement not been convincing, skewed towards a different area to the course or not enough critical analysis of a subjects etc

I think it probably depends on the individual university tutor tbh. Our DD is in her second year at uni. She wrote her personal statement with an arts subject and ox ridge application in mind. She got an interview at Oxford but wasn't offered a place. At that point she decided she wanted to change her course to a science course. Rang her the uni she's now at (Kings in London). She asked if they'd take her on the course and told them her personal statement was not relevant now and should she write another one - they told her they wouldn't be reading it and it didn't matter. She was nightly miffed that she's spent so long worrying about the statement in the first place!

Urgh - typos! Apologies!

But they aren't representative of all universities. Anywhere that competitive to get into will give more weighting to a personal statement.

Dd definitely got points for her music exams. They also offered her a small bursary if she promised to play in the orchestra, do they must read personal statements

@chopc

As per TSR and other threads here students have been rejected from Durham, imperial and LSE due to their personal statement not been convincing, skewed towards a different area to the course or not enough critical analysis of a subjects etc

As I've just said.... it depends on the course and the university.

Each university is an autonomous institution and therefore deal with applications differently.

I hope this is not a silly or not appropriate questions. But if the personal statement is potentially not as important as student's are lead to believe. How important is the school reference? If grades are borderline or a course is competitive with many applicants with the same grades, does the reference help decide if an offer is made or note?

@Dove0709

I hope this is not a silly or not appropriate questions. But if the personal statement is potentially not as important as student's are lead to believe. How important is the school reference? If grades are borderline or a course is competitive with many applicants with the same grades, does the reference help decide if an offer is made or note?

The things is, it could be important and for certain subjects/universities it does make a difference so we shouldn't tell students it's not important. Those universities and courses where a personal statement is important will also be reading the references. They can also be important if the student is borderline or needs to use clearing/adjustment

I am not disputing what is being said about personal statements but would just like to stick my oar in about DofE. It is being spoken of as if it is some bastion of the privileged. It is offered through schools and available to all. It gives many students from less affluent backgrounds opportunities to experience things they would never otherwise do (and builds in volunteering). This was precisely its mission statement. It may not be directly helpful to a PS but it can build confidence and add to life experiences (and inform interests for uni application?). It would be lovely if music lessons were equally accessible too.

Even things like 'super curricular' (I have never heard this work d outside MN so suspect it in itself may be a public school word? It is not one any kids at my school would recognise) and just being able to volunteer are not easily accessible to all. If you live in a backwater village with no public transport, for example. I find the ones who do volunteering have parents who ferry them around. Way fewer sixth formers have jobs these days than used to (not actually a bad things as many of ours used to work in pubs til all hours) and the ones who do are often form more affluent backgrounds, in my experience.

I think the bias of UCAS itself can show through : UCAS points for music exams at grade 6 plus but no UCAS points for FA coaching badges which also require study.

One of the problems was that rich kids got sent to a "crammer" to improve their grades. Am I right that some Exam Board do not now permit retakes?

It is so much more difficult to cram for a language or music or art, even at A level, which can be a 'memory test'. Those that are trained for the exam often fall out of uni at end of Yr 1 or into Yr2

Good general points about engineers and dyslexia. From personal experience I would add the autistic spectrum.