Real problem or is this banter about home regions

[mids2019]

I feel this is an issue that has been a feature of universities for years

As a northerner going to an RG uni was socially difficult experience and I did try and suppress my accent.

I didn't mind friendly banter based on accent but did feel my background precluded me from certain peer groups.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/oct/24/uk-top-universities-urged-act-classism-accent-prejudice?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Why would this matter at Liverpool, Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds or Newcastle or York? All of whom have loads of home grown students? Oxbridge have less northerners but people need confidence to stay true to themselves. Honestly - no one really cares where you come from. I think southern accents are mocked in the north.

The problem is: we are getting more tribal. Look at politics this week. People in the north prefer the north. They appear to despise southerners now for spurious reasons!

Southerners go everywhere. But they are all considered posh wealthy types. That’s obviously rubbish too! Everyone needs to grow up!

Giymere I agree that there is always going to be regional banter and this is actually quite bonding if both parties accept it as banter.

The problem lies when the mockery takes a more malign slant and can be akin to racial prejudice.

Yes. Works both ways though. That’s what I’m trying to say. Northerners mock southerners. I’m well aware northerners are more reluctant to go to universities south of Birmingham. Looking at the destinations of leavers from a friends DDs school in a northern city, none go south of Nottingham. Huge numbers go to the local RG. So RG isn’t the issue in my view. These dc are staying rooted to their tribe. Southerners go anywhere.

I don’t think the northerners see mocking as a reason not to go to Southampton or Exeter, it’s just a preference to stay in their comfort zone. As do SW DC who go to Exeter and Bristol. Don’t people mock a western accent too! The more northern people complain about their “lot” and others stopping them achieving, despite having great universities on the doorstep that others aspire to, the worse this divide will become. The bottom line is: go to the best university you can for your subject.

There was a report done by a Durham university student on this very subject. Guymere it is rife at Durham, local students feel very excluded. Even on Radio 4 Woman's Hour a few weeks ago they covered the fact that Northern accents in a workplace are still perceived as lower class.

www.palatinate.org.uk/report-alleges-verbal-and-physical-abuse-against-northern-students-at-durham-university/

I am a Northerner and I am very aware of how my accent is perceived by others.

The issue with mocking the Northern accent is the perceived notion of class though, people don't mock a Southern accent and think that they must be poor.

My accent was mocked at a southern university and I come from London. Not posh enough is what it boils down too. Thought it might have got better in the intervening years but obviously not. I got rejected for Durham and St. Andrews despite already having the grades which in hindsight was a good thing given my experience at a more diverse one.

To not too...no wonder I got rejected!

Cockney accent doesn’t equal poor?! Essex accent not mocked? Really? Just stop being so thin skinned. It’s your perception of others and yourself. Durham just takes the best students. If northerners feel they don’t fit in, they need to branch out a bit and make an effort to meet friends. I take it as a slight that I’m perceived as rich and unfriendly because I’m from the Home Counties. Why would you think that from my accent. Everyone needs to grow up and stop stereotyping people. You can tell nothing from an accent! Nothing.

I think one of the challenges here is that accent is a proxy of class in peoples eyes.

I dont think this is necessarily a north south divide but one of broad regional accent against none

I think it a bit disingenuous to think that class cultural barriers dont exist at universities (especially pre 92 ones) and I think it is positive students can talk about their experiences.

Being of the wrong tribe at uni can actually be a debilitating experience. Back in the day when I was at uni there was a working class Liverpudlian that seriously did consider leaving because of a perceived public school culture.

But public school dc are mocked at other universities. It’s not one way traffic.

Guymere good point. I think it's important though that students can talk about cultural divisions what ever their background though.

At one level it's important students do get to meet a diverse range of people and form positive relationships with them as this is a real life skill

However in reality working class students can feel socially divorced from some university peers and if you are in a minority this can be a depressing experience.

The danger here is that middle class and working class children make university decisions not based on their academic ability or suitability of course but more where they will fit in with their peers. You are quite right when you say there is a tribal element to this and working class students may focus on pre 92 university's as they feel these institutions have student bodies that reflect their own background

I just had to turn radio 4 off as they had one person whose voice rose at the end of each sentence and he was irritating me so much and another saying "haitch" which I cannot stand and don't get me started on people who drop their Ts. I think compulsory elocution throughout schools years and remedial at university on those points and for people who say like all the time would be good, then I might be able to switch on the radio and TV again...... [ I am from NE England by the way]

YY, I don't think it's north versus south so much as that some unpleasant people will mock an accent they see as 'lower class'.

I think it is a real problem and really nasty. There were comments in the Guardian piece about academics judging students' for their accents, or saying idiotic things about how students ought to change the way they speak. That ought to be something for which the academic in question is disciplined, and I wish more students felt able to report it. I've never heard of a university that would think it's ok to give students the message that they should change their accents.

Nor indeed that lecturers change their accents.

Yes: I agree students should be able to talk to others. I think the maturer ones can and do. There are issues with students thinking they won’t fit in. It’s also a London thing where students won’t leave home either. Outreach from local universities is good and students like to stay in their home bubble. They get quite a decent loan for doing this too and can save money.

When I looked at destinations of the northern school, I was shocked that not a single dc had gone to London or anywhere further south than Nottingham. I would imagine that would apply to job seeking too. Whether we like it or not, these dc won’t look to anywhere not in their comfort zone and I think the mocking of accents is seriously over stated.

My friends DD attended a sixth form of a good school. The previous school was up to y11 only. I was stunned to find she had made no friends there. I asked why not. It was because no one was like her. In the same city, less than 2 miles from home. They were all too posh apparently! If DC are so brainwashed as to not even accept DC from their own city as decent DC, what hope is there? State comprehensive by the way. And this DD isn’t working class. Just unwilling to step out of her comfort zone.

Xenia - I agree that poor grammatical construction of sentences is something that should be avoided when speaking formally but you can communicate eloquently with an accent (NE here as well.. well originally).

The problem is when an accent is derogrately used often with an underlying assumption of social class

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Guymere - interesting point about northern students not wishing to go to far south.

I am from the North East and apart from Oxford and Cambridge not many students went further than Nottingham.

I think is partially from geographical pragmatism but I wonder if Oxford and Cambridge are a little further from northern pupils' radar as they are in the south east?

One thing I did find at university that was disturbing was the attitude to working class townspeople with some really viscous jokes. When you have family and peers who may fall into that social level it is discomforting.

Guymere - I think there is a difference between leaving your comfort zone (good thing by the way) and the entirely human decision of choosing to spend time in an institution where you feel you have common bonds with people

I think a few bits of banter about accent is entirely acceptable if the participants both agree it is banter.

The problem in my view is if the banter has a malign intent and is part of an overall culture which can be quite demeaning to working class culture ( which does happen)

There are pretty quick trains to northern cities in and out of London.

I think the Guardian article is flawed in stating RG. I don’t think local people with accents are put off local RG universities at all.

It’s also easy to look at others at university and think they are all posh. They are not. Their accents are just different to the various northern ones. Durham has more state school DC than private School students. The state school students cannot possibly all be posh. But if you subscribe to the view that anyone not like you is to be avoided, as my friends DD does, you will say it’s off putting and you cannot make friends. Just as she did at school. It’s a very narrow view of the world. I also totally accept some posh dc do the same. The majority in the middle don’t.

I also am getting fed up with this relentless media and political north vs south, working class vs posh, Scotland vs England etc. It diminishes us all. Most people, if left to their own devices, make friends easily enough. If parents and schools had never pushed ordinary folk to go to Oxbridge, for example, where would we be? Why are people now crying they cannot mix? People years ago took it in their stride and really wanted it. This generation should too.

If DC will only go to a university where they perceive they will have a common bond with people, then Oxbridge could probably stop all outreach! What’s the point? People have to branch out and look at the bond being academic. Not background. Not accents. But academics. I think some people prefer their comfort zone above academic excellence. Not sure how to change this but parents and schools need to up their game.

There were several journos (or one under several names) fishing for comments on the higher ed board earlier this week so I expected those articles.

I’m afraid Essex was the most mocked accent at my very northern university many years ago.

Guymere good points.

It is important Young adults do broaden their horizons to flourish and this does in ol e missing with others with differing backgrounds and views. This makes is rounded human beings.

However class prejudice does exist as do such things as racism. Drawing a parallel to race most undergraduates would never consider mocking a student for their ethnicity so you can see the argument why people can be sensitive about regional accents which are very much part of their identity.

I think it is a good thing to highlight class prejudice and its manifestations so we can act on it. Class was very much ingrained in society say in the Victorian timed but now in recent decades class barriers are diminishing but there are still tensions.

I think outreach is fantastic for Oxford and Cambridge and they are definitely going in the right direction. It may be that other universities could follow suit.

It's a bit of chicken and egg. Working class students may not consider Oxford or Cambridge as they perceive they will be in a minority but until they start applying in greater numbers then that minority will still persist.

@Guymere

Why would this matter at Liverpool, Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds or Newcastle or York? All of whom have loads of home grown students? Oxbridge have less northerners but people need confidence to stay true to themselves. Honestly - no one really cares where you come from. I think southern accents are mocked in the north.

The problem is: we are getting more tribal. Look at politics this week. People in the north prefer the north. They appear to despise southerners now for spurious reasons!

Southerners go everywhere. But they are all considered posh wealthy types. That’s obviously rubbish too! Everyone needs to grow up!

Except I worked in the City for 17 years and in that whole time only had one senior manager with a regional accent.

One.

Well that proves my points. People from the north don’t want to come south.

Read the article by Robert Crampton in the Times today. Much more illuminating really. There is good reason to stay in the north. Money goes further for a start. Not everyone wants to go to London do they? So it doesn’t matter to them. Maybe staying local in the north provides a better standard of living as housing is cheaper? There’s plenty of wealth in the north. I also agree with Cramptons points about going backwards via the Andy Burnham rhetoric. It’s not helpful. It stops movement and aspiration.

I went to what is now an RG university and there were people from all over the country. We sometimes learnt new phrases from each other (for example to mitch off in Devon and "9 while 5" in Yorkshire instead of 9 to 5) but there was no bullying. My accent goes up and down the motorway though so I can blend in quite well wherever I am.

I think we've moved on a lot from the days of a single Manchester grammar school boy going to Oxford with all the public schoolboys. I think a lot of students in the north look to Durham as an alternative though. And it is is true that a lot of kids from the south-west go to Exeter, Bristol and Cardiff but I think that's ease of getting home, too. If you live in Truro, even Exeter is quite a long way away.

I worked in the City for 17 years and in that whole time only had one senior manager with a regional accent Well I work for a London law firm and at least two of the partners in my area are from Nottingham and Darlington respectively and have regional accents. I have a regional accent myself.

As only 7% of Durham students come from the NE and it is put forward that Northerners like to stay local what are the reasons for the relatively low intake? It is certainly not for lack of ability or intelligence.

I do think unfortunately reputation does have an influence on uni choice (rightly or wrongly).

I think the majority of conversations on regional idiosyncracies are light hearted and informative but when you have open mockery of people I dont think their experiences can be dismissed.

A lot of bullying in all spheres of life can be dismissed as only 'banter' so we have to be a bit careful here.