Real problem or is this banter about home regions

[mids2019]

I feel this is an issue that has been a feature of universities for years

As a northerner going to an RG uni was socially difficult experience and I did try and suppress my accent.

I didn't mind friendly banter based on accent but did feel my background precluded me from certain peer groups.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/oct/24/uk-top-universities-urged-act-classism-accent-prejudice?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

You are quite right when you say there is a tribal element to this and working class students may focus on pre 92 university's as they feel these institutions have student bodies that reflect their own background

Did you mean post-92?

Cologne .... yes

@Guymere

Well that proves my points. People from the north don’t want to come south.

Read the article by Robert Crampton in the Times today. Much more illuminating really. There is good reason to stay in the north. Money goes further for a start. Not everyone wants to go to London do they? So it doesn’t matter to them. Maybe staying local in the north provides a better standard of living as housing is cheaper? There’s plenty of wealth in the north. I also agree with Cramptons points about going backwards via the Andy Burnham rhetoric. It’s not helpful. It stops movement and aspiration.

No, it doesn't prove your point.

I worked alongside plenty of people with regional accents.

I have a regional accent.

Senior management and executives did not have regional accents.

Also I went to a Northern RG university (Manchester) and studied Law.

There were very few regional accents among my peer group and 70% of the students in my intake were private school educated.

So perhaps some may be Northern but privately educated and hence without the regional accent. In my experience people with private and even grammar school education tend not to have much of a regional accent and so it continues the class divide.

People in the north prefer the north. They appear to despise southerners now for spurious reasons!

When you read about what's been going on in Durham, then you can understand why people from that area wouldn't want to go south.

Northerners have long, long been despised by southerners. The number of regional accents on television is very low. It's incredibly hard to get certain jobs in the south if you have a northern accent. And then you have those twats in Durham etc having bets on who can sleep with the poorest student. They're a disgrace.

As only 7% of Durham students come from the NE and it is put forward that Northerners like to stay local what are the reasons for the relatively low intake? It is certainly not for lack of ability or intelligence.

I wonder if there's any different trends re popularity of subject by region? For instance, it wouldn't surprise me if kids from the NE might be somewhat more likely to want to go into eg engineering than humanities (with a thought to employment in the region) so would be less likely to choose Durham (which only does general, and not particularly highly rated) than any of Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield....

But Durham isn’t Liverpool or Manchester or Sheffield. It’s well known as a back up to Oxbridge so you wouldn’t expect it to have a large intake locally. Especially as Newcastle is nearby.

Why would students in the NE do Engineering more than anyone else? I don’t buy that. Engineers need Stem A levels. They come from all over. DH from the SE went to a northern university to do Engineering. People back then really didn’t keep labelling people as working class, Northern, Londoners etc and label them as not worth knowing.

Whatever poor behaviour is exhibited by some students, they are a tiny minority. These people can be avoided.

I think that cost of accommodation and other living costs Is a factor when Northern students look at where they will go to study.
It’s a conversation I have had many times with uni applicants about the financial costs of study, especially in more costly areas.

Liverpool is expensive for first year accommodation.

By the way, I don’t approve of any students behaving badly but it’s nearly always men. Going to university brings out appalling behaviour in some of them. It’s not just Durham though. I do think the vast majority of students are not like this so the girls need to be able to suss these types out early and avoid. It’s no reason to avoid a university though because it’s such a tiny minority who behave badly.

Why do we assume northern students are poor? There are poor people everywhere who aspire to university. Cornwall isn’t rich. Plenty in Birmingham and Leicester are not rich.

Not affording university accommodation is an excuse because the loan is the same for all. Others clearly do go somewhere perceived as more expensive and manage. Not paying for accommodation and staying at home is the best value of all. Students get a loan to help with family finances. Or they save. Or they have money to go out with their mates who have stayed at home whereas the more adventurous student might have to work. It depends what the student wants.

I was from up north and went to a southern uni. The only comments I had on accent were either "where are you from? oh yes I thought so." or "I love your accent" type comments.

I had more comments in my school days in a northern school because my accent wasn't as strong when I began due to having parents from the midlands. I was often called "posh" and such like. I felt I had to emphasise my accent to fit in. I never felt that at uni.

@OnTheBenchOfDoom

The issue with mocking the Northern accent is the perceived notion of class though, people don't mock a Southern accent and think that they must be poor.

You must live in a bubble where people from from Essex or cockney London or the South West don't exist.

Northerners have long long been despised by southerners
No. Some (a minority, I think) of northerners (and the media) have long, long enjoyed perpetuating that myth. Those guilty of doing this are usually themselves quite comfortably off.

The cost of living is more expensive in the south.
Yes the loan the same, but the perception that it costs too much to
live there is hard to shake.
Plus cost of getting back home can also be a factor,
I try to get applicants to widen their horizons but it’s not simple.

I agree it’s not simple and many students see no advantage in being south of Nottingham at all. After all, if you do not wish to join the perceived rich people in the south, you don’t need to. You will be very well off in the north if you are a doctor or solicitor for example. Let’s not pretend it’s got anything to do with accents though.

Speaking as a voice from the past..... born and brought up in South London with a mother who was keen for me to speak properly, there were theoretically several types of accent.....speaking properly, common, country and northern. When I went to University (Bristol) in 1957 I was surprised to find 'people with accents' were fellow students. However I soon realised that these people with accents were just as eligible to be there as I was, and eventually married one. And having lived in the North and Midlands ever since my children and grandchildren have various regional accents.
I am saddened to read that some Durham students have such an unpleasant attitude and wonder if they are the products of expensive fee-paying schools.

I think accents do have an impact (wrongly obviously)
I went to uni with a lot of southerners but I had other students saying they couldn’t understand my strong scouse accent. I intentionally toned it down to be understood.

There was a programme on bbc called how to break into the elite which is worth a watch. About the secret language, the “right” accent.

It’s a whole host of issues
Perception
Class
Expectation
Education

When I looked at destinations of the northern school, I was shocked that not a single dc had gone to London or anywhere further south than Nottingham. I would imagine that would apply to job seeking too. Whether we like it or not, these dc won’t look to anywhere not in their comfort zone and I think the mocking of accents is seriously over stated.

But this ^ has nothing to do with accents, and everything to do with cost of living.
We aren't from "the North", but none of my dc wanted to apply to any London universities as none of them wanted to spend their university life being broke. Shows sensible financial judgement to me. Nothing to do with prejudice or accents and everything to do with good financial knowhow, as @Rummikub has intimated.

Not too sure what to make of this.
I was ridiculed daily for my Yorkshire accent when I moved to Devon at 18. Stupid comments regarding whippets, flat caps & pigeons. Yes, I had to speak slower to be understood but it never occurred to me not to study in the south because I had the wrong accent. I doubt prospective uni students give it any thought either.
We’ve many friends in Manchester with DC at both private and state but all with regional accents. They apply to London universities, Cambridge, Oxford but very few to other southern universities. Nothing to do with their Manchester accents but more to do with great northern universities that are within easy travel distance. Why would a Mancunian choose Exeter, Bristol, Soton universities when she has Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, York, Sheffield, Durham on her doorstep. Likewise, southern teens predominantly choose Exeter, Bristol, Bath, Soton, Birmingham. But of course some go further afield to Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds etc. But I’m pretty sure if we did a straw poll about their choices, accents would not be mentioned. Who cares!! As long as you’re understood.

I should just say, my DD only wants to go to a university that is too far away for her mother to pop into, so she is DELIBERATELY choosing one where her accent will mark her out as distant

FWIW, my DH is scarily clever, northern and working class. He was invited to an oxbridge uni, and was successful there. But he told me "they have a million little ways to make it clear to you that you don't belong"

FWIW, my DH is scarily clever, northern and working class. He was invited to an oxbridge uni, and was successful there. But he told me "they have a million little ways to make it clear to you that you don't belong"

This quote ^^ is awful
But I can fully believe it sadly

Oh, its 100 per cent true.

He says he had to absolutely stop himself punching the man who used the expression "salt of the earth"
And he won't watch anything Mike leigh has touched, because he finds him so patronising

@OnTheBenchOfDoom

The issue with mocking the Northern accent is the perceived notion of class though, people don't mock a Southern accent and think that they must be poor.

This is not my experience of some accents from the South that are perceived as Working Class by some.

You must live in a bubble where people from from Essex or cockney London or the South West don't exist

no I live in a huge northern city, but with a different northern accent than the locals have. I have a different accent to my children. I have lived in several places but never London nor the south. My accent doesn't stand out as much here than other places where I have lived and been judged, people assume I am poor, Coronation Street was the reference point for most people I was at uni with in the 90s. They assume the north is all cobbled streets, terraced houses, Vera Duckworth.

I love the cockney accent, I could listen to Danny Dyer all day. Couldn't tell you what a south west accent even is.

As for PP mentioning not going far and Nottingham being a reference point, have you seen how long it takes to drive to some places? My university was 5 hours away from my parents meaning they drove a 10 hour round trip. Yes trains are great, cost a fortune though and I don't know how many students move into accommodation without getting a lift from a parent. It is a lot of stuff to move. So distance is a factor. Ds didn't consider any London based unis due to cost and he wanted to be no more than 3 hours by car away from home.

Durham comes up a lot, if you look at the article I linked above by a current Durham student it says

*University Vice-Chancellor Professor Stuart Corbridge warned students: “If you see misbehaviour, if you see examples of sexism or misogyny or racism or classism, challenge it."

So don't report it to us, you stand up to them yourselves. Hardly proactive by the university.

I really think coming from a working class.background that working class children sometimes do not have the confidence to consider going to distance some distance away (both socially and geographically). Many have financial or family restrictions and there are cultural pressures to remain local.

There were elements of relative poverty in my family (uncles were sheet metal workers and miner ...... both unemployed through long term sickness) and none of my family had done A levels. University was an alien concept. Until 6th form I thought there was a catchment are a for universities in much the same way as schools.

The whole university application process was daunting as well as the prospect of moving home. Although reasonably bright I have to admit being socially shy and was brought up with an innate deference to middle classes. Through watching T V I was conscious of a class of people that spoke very differently (think university challenge and cabinet ministers on the news) but these people seemed very remote.

Long story short I found myself having a n interview at St. Johns College Cambridge after my school suggested it and we immediately conscious of another social world with differing accents, backgrounds, hobbies and cultural perspective. I didn't get in but certainly it made me aware that there was a different world to the villages of North East England out there.

I ended up at a Midlands Uni and was (maybe unfortunatl y) was surrounded by middle class students who bonded through shared experience and it quickly became evident I did not fit into their social circle. I suppressed my accent to try and for in and limited discussion on family background. I am ashamed to say I felt inferior.

Eventually I found my tribe at university but not really until the third year. The early years were pretty isolating.

I now have daughters who may or may not wish to go to university eventually and I wonder if my advice will be coloured by experience. I guess they would be second generation university applicants so both and I and my partner can pass.in experience but I still have underlying angst.