Real problem or is this banter about home regions

[mids2019]

I feel this is an issue that has been a feature of universities for years

As a northerner going to an RG uni was socially difficult experience and I did try and suppress my accent.

I didn't mind friendly banter based on accent but did feel my background precluded me from certain peer groups.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/oct/24/uk-top-universities-urged-act-classism-accent-prejudice?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

If DC will only go to a university where they perceive they will have a common bond with people, then Oxbridge could probably stop all outreach! What’s the point? People have to branch out and look at the bond being academic. Not background. Not accents. But academics. I think some people prefer their comfort zone above academic excellence. Not sure how to change this but parents and schools need to up their game.

Ah if only it were this simple.

There is a thing called 'student-institutional fit' which means applicants will choose a university where they think they will best fit in. It's all to do with social and cultural capital and accent forms part of this. Non- traditional students are two thirds more likely to choose a mid to low tariff university even when they have the grades to attend an elite university.
Telling people to 'branch out' is completely ignoring the structural issues at play.

Not affording university accommodation is an excuse because the loan is the same for all. Others clearly do go somewhere perceived as more expensive and manage.

It's not an excuse. Even the highest amount of loan doesn't cover accommodation in the vast majority ( if not all) cases.
There is an expected parental contribution which can equate to hundreds of pounds a month.... one parent told me it was like paying for full time nursery again!

That was quoted from my post. I didn’t just say people. I said schools and parents. They have the greatest influence.

Actually I’m interested that most people are saying they didn’t want to go south anyway so the Guardian article is flawed if northerners stay north! That’s what I said on page 1. Why worry if you are happy with Newcastle, Liverpool etc? There’s no problem is there?

I do know northern students from the NW go to Bristol but I do think Exeter and Southampton would seem a long way.

As for not knowing a West Country accent (That shows it’s never on the radio.tv) - it’s someone who is described as “yokel” or a “turnip top”. Think about the “brand new combined harvester” song and you get the accent and the jibes.

That was quoted from my post. I didn’t just say people. I said schools and parents. They have the greatest influence.

Actually I’m interested that most people are saying they didn’t want to go south anyway so the Guardian article is flawed if northerners stay north! That’s what I said on page 1. Why worry if you are happy with Newcastle, Liverpool etc? There’s no problem is there?

Schools will often try very hard to raise aspirations but parents are the biggest influence and that's harder to address as you're dealing with generations of cultural expectations.

It's not just about northern students staying north .... it's the type of university they choose. First generation students and students from lower socioeconomic groups are more likely to choose low tariff universities despite having the required grades for an elite university. That is a problem which needs to be addressed.

I do know northern students from the NW go to Bristol but I do think Exeter and Southampton would seem a long way.

They are a long way. Most of DDs peers chose unis no further south than Birmingham, but did include all the great northern and Scottish unis.
Bristol is accessible from the NW simply because of the main line railway and M6/M5. Southampton is a real pain as we found - DD was unusual because her dad has the time and inclination to be a chauffeur, but from the travel POV I'm quite glad she didn't go that far afield. Exeter... we had a look at the campus when we were on holiday from mere curiosity - there's simply no reason to have it on the list if you've got Manchester and Sheffield nearer.

Some of it is as simple as logistics.

I take issue with this :
Wright said well-meaning university outreach teams were consistently failing in their efforts to reassure working-class students. “They promise their institutions are friendly and welcoming, but when that message comes in a home counties accent from bored middle-class students who have been sent into the north to deliver the message, my students are rightly sceptical.”

Does that fit with anyone's experience of the reality of how unis do their outreach events? I know that when DD participated - gladly giving up her very limited holiday during a summer internship - her college had an excess of volunteers, so chose to prioritise northerners/state school. At her open day the 'outreach' talk was from a down to earth young woman from the NE.

The idea that unis are routinely dispatching 'bored middle class students' as their (unwilling) ambassadors to the uncouth north seems unlikely.

Sue Ellen I think you are exactly right and this is an issue that needs addressing.

Anecdotally Northumbria and Sunderland Universities are where the 'locals' go and the Universities of Newcastle and Durham are where national middle class children go.

The student institutional fit is definitely a consideration. Working class children will be wary of choosing institutions where they perceive they wont fit

I think this is actually justifiable unfortunately as why would someone spend 3 years in a university where they may have a socially difficult experience?

The stories of class discrimination from certain universities are worrying in this regard

With regard to travel logistics in the North East it may be worrying from an aspiration perspective if bright children are not applying to Oxbridge and London Universties because of logistics.

@mids2019

Sue Ellen I think you are exactly right and this is an issue that needs addressing.

Anecdotally Northumbria and Sunderland Universities are where the 'locals' go and the Universities of Newcastle and Durham are where national middle class children go.

The student institutional fit is definitely a consideration. Working class children will be wary of choosing institutions where they perceive they wont fit

I think this is actually justifiable unfortunately as why would someone spend 3 years in a university where they may have a socially difficult experience?

The stories of class discrimination from certain universities are worrying in this regard

With regard to travel logistics in the North East it may be worrying from an aspiration perspective if bright children are not applying to Oxbridge and London Universties because of logistics.

It's a subject very close to my heart and was the topic of my PhD. I feel very strongly about it!

@ErrolTheDragon

I take issue with this : Wright said well-meaning university outreach teams were consistently failing in their efforts to reassure working-class students. “They promise their institutions are friendly and welcoming, but when that message comes in a home counties accent from bored middle-class students who have been sent into the north to deliver the message, my students are rightly sceptical.”

Does that fit with anyone's experience of the reality of how unis do their outreach events? I know that when DD participated - gladly giving up her very limited holiday during a summer internship - her college had an excess of volunteers, so chose to prioritise northerners/state school. At her open day the 'outreach' talk was from a down to earth young woman from the NE.

The idea that unis are routinely dispatching 'bored middle class students' as their (unwilling) ambassadors to the uncouth north seems unlikely.

I worked in outreach for years and it did vary between universities however, the vast majority of staff and students involved were passionate about widening access and were enthusiastic about their university and higher education in general.

Anecdotally Northumbria and Sunderland Universities are where the 'locals' go and the Universities of Newcastle and Durham are where national middle class children go.

Doesn't that apply to quite a large extent in all parts of the country though? It would be odd if that wasn't the case.

London is an exception to most other areas because of the cost and also that the idea of living in London is quite marmite.

This is an interesting report with lots of (slightly outdated) data on different universities and the factors associated with student mobility: www.suttontrust.com/our-research/home-and-away-student-mobility/

The gist if it is that there are lots of factors associated with whether a student moves different distances to go to university and the makeup of the student population at different universities, including the geographical location of universities and the student's home, but that social class is a big factor.

Which is why parents need educating and schools should be more proactive in telling students about the different qualities the universities have. Ditto courses available.

@Guymere

Which is why parents need educating and schools should be more proactive in telling students about the different qualities the universities have. Ditto courses available.

Again, so simplistic!

Where were you when I was writing my PhD dissertation on this??!

You can educate the students and parents as much as you like but if the students don't feel like they are going to fit in they just won't apply.
This needs to be driven by the universities themselves.

No one had ever been to Oxbridge from my small NE school (private) and I went to Manchester. Bristol and Durham rejected me as my school seriously under predicted my grades (most girls did not do A levels). Manchester was fine and I went to London soon after for work. Obviously I was middle class as at a fee paying school however. My siblings went to Oxbridge.

I can understand people wanting to go where there are people like they are but that was never an issue for me. It is interesting to meet different people. I know my sons (their school is mostly not white) had friends who picked London or Warwick over places they thought might be too white for example. I even think some universities are dividing by income in that only the rich or the very poor on full loans can afford the more expensive catered hall so in a sense there is almost a segregation by hall although it is a V shape as the rich and those least well off are the ones with enough money for the expensive halls.

Why worry if you are happy with Newcastle, Liverpool etc? There’s no problem is there?

But why should anyone be allowed to feel that any university 'isn't for them for any other reason than that they have looked at potential courses, university set-up and location and decided on their personal terms that as a positive decision, they would prefer the course, set-up and location somewhere else. Not because at every turn, they hear that University X is full of people hung up on the prestige of the place and acting out their belief that despite the university's actual geographical location, those living in the vicinity have little right to study there and who make it obvious that they would prefer not to find themselves having to share teaching space or residences with them.

So yes, there is a problem.

@Xenia

No one had ever been to Oxbridge from my small NE school (private) and I went to Manchester. Bristol and Durham rejected me as my school seriously under predicted my grades (most girls did not do A levels). Manchester was fine and I went to London soon after for work. Obviously I was middle class as at a fee paying school however. My siblings went to Oxbridge.

I can understand people wanting to go where there are people like they are but that was never an issue for me. It is interesting to meet different people. I know my sons (their school is mostly not white) had friends who picked London or Warwick over places they thought might be too white for example. I even think some universities are dividing by income in that only the rich or the very poor on full loans can afford the more expensive catered hall so in a sense there is almost a segregation by hall although it is a V shape as the rich and those least well off are the ones with enough money for the expensive halls.

There are always exceptions... but research shows that they are just that, an exception rather than the rule.

Not affording university accommodation is an excuse because the loan is the same for all. Others clearly do go somewhere perceived as more expensive and manage.

Are you serious ?
All y dc (at 3 different universities) have either been able to, or almost able pay their accommodation out of their (minimum) loan. Not possible in London. That is a difference of literally thousands of ££. Then start adding on the extra £2 - £10 every time they pay for a pint, or a meal, or a haircut, or to go into a nightclub (outside of 2020), or any other thing they need (or choose) to spend money on. It makes a massive difference.

A very depressing read in The Tab, from students' point of view. thetab.com/uk/durham/2020/10/23/im-making-fun-of-you-because-youre-poor-northern-students-on-classism-at-durham-49321?itm_source=parsely-api

Backforgood - yes my point was the least well off get a massive loan and many in the middle get a loan to small to afford the more expensive accommodation. This is a result of which the Labour party who put in place the system are proud, actually, that now money should never put anyone badly off off university. That is correct. It is those who get £43oo not £8k loan who suffer, ie middle class or those whose parents are rich but very mean.

Honestly, students really do go to London with the max and min loan. It isn’t easy but students do manage -traditionally by getting work. The loans are also more in London. DD went to a London university and it wasn’t full of people from London, surprisingly reading this.

However I really do take exception to what I’ve said being called simplistic and the fact I don’t have a PhD in this subject appears to make my views worthless, SueEllen. So nasty and patronising. I can really see how we pigeon-hole people into corners and they are not allowed to participate! Just like accents really! Nothing like a good old MN put down of unworthy posters?!

It's not a north/south thing though.

I had a friend (black working class Londoner) who went to Durham. She felt fine with other university students (only a small amount of classism) but she did experience racism and anti southern attitudes from the non student locals.

If there's any classism to be found, it equally affects working class southerners.

A working class student with a strong Essex accent will experience more classism than a middle class Dominic Cummings type (from the north, privately educated at Durham School).

There's plenty of affluent middle-class non stereotyped northern accents to be found in York, Durham, Cheshire, Harrogate, etc.

Inverse snobbery also remains a problem.

If there's anywhere where accents won't stand out it's London. It attracts students (and workers) from across the UK and around the world. There is a myriad of accents to be found in London. It's universities are very diverse.

However I really do take exception to what I’ve said being called simplistic and the fact I don’t have a PhD in this subject appears to make my views worthless, SueEllen. So nasty and patronising. I can really see how we pigeon-hole people into corners and they are not allowed to participate! Just like accents really! Nothing like a good old MN put down of unworthy posters?!

I'm not being nasty and I'm sorry if you've interpreted it that way. But you are being very simplistic- it's not as easy as asking young people to 'branch out' as per your original suggestion.
It's a really, really complex issue - an issue I've dedicated the last 18 years of my life to researching, studying, teaching and implementing.
I've worked with A* 18 year olds from low socioeconomic backgrounds who have had all the information possible, supportive schools and targeted interventions yet still chosen a job in Tesco over university or have chosen the local college over the local RG university. Those ingrained cultural norms are difficult to change.

SueEllen your Ph.D sounds interesting!

I agree this is a complex topic and I have a personal perspective.

Can I hazard reasons for able working class children not considering high tariff universities?

• peer pressure , wishing to do something similar to their peers.

I know it was jarring to go a different route to many of my neighbours and primary school friends.

Will working class children aspire to high a level grades when they do not need them for local institutions (with possibly low tariffs)

As mentioned earlier (and thread subject) the fear of class discrimination and having to adapt their cultural leanings to fit in with their new peers. We all do this to some extent throughout our lives but it isn't a particularly self edifying experience.

University culture

Obviously Oxbridge has a number of traditions that would appear alien and elitist to the youth of say Gateshead or Jarrow. I dont think it does outreach any favours having pictures of May Balls in the press. A pint of Newky brown in the Bigg Market this is not

A lot of RG unis have traditions such as formal meals, hall parties etc which again can seem distant to working class culture (we could add types of sport, music etc to this)

I think one could be career aspirations. Working class kids link ex polys with more vocational courses which they see as a more transparent route to a specific career

To a working class child it can be difficult to see how an arts degree from a high tariff uni can open doors (which it can)

I remember after having achieved a degree in physics that the career options presented to me (apart from academia) were accountancy, being an actuary and investment banking. All these professions to my 20 year old self seemed a long way from the roles of my family and well out of my comfort zone. I went through some sort of identity crisis when (eventually) choosing a life path (another story).

mids2019 you make some excellent points.

Working class students are more likely to choose vocational courses as they're viewed as less 'risky'. They're are also more likely to see higher education as a risk in general as it seems like a lot of investment for an intangible outcome ( no guarantee of a good job) so they will mitigate this risk by choosing vocations courses at local universities.

Student-institutional fit is a big factor too.... but much harder to address. Students will choose universities where there are people like them which creates a vicious cycle.