Real problem or is this banter about home regions

[mids2019]

I feel this is an issue that has been a feature of universities for years

As a northerner going to an RG uni was socially difficult experience and I did try and suppress my accent.

I didn't mind friendly banter based on accent but did feel my background precluded me from certain peer groups.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/oct/24/uk-top-universities-urged-act-classism-accent-prejudice?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

SueEllen

That makes sense

I don't think there are easy answers to at least answers that are quickly implemented.

The 'fit' factor is important but can only be assessed through reputation

Marketing material for universities is simply that marketing material. Every university is going to present themselves as 'welcoming and inclusive'. No university wishes to discuss their problems in open really.

This means wary students will very much rely on reputation (probably through the internet these days) to try and judge the fit. The consequences of getting it wrong can be unpleasant as some of the posters here have alluded to.

I wonder if University choice is a generational thing. In that a student meets their spouse at uni and then wish their children to go the same place? You here stories of one/two/three oxbridge families for instance.

I wonder if Prince William considered his institutional fit when he chose St Andrew's. It was interesting that his social circle at uni seemed to strangely include expensively privately educated girls from millionaire families when it came to choosing a bride. Would William have gone to Manchester Met with lower grade a levels or would he have dated his residence hall neighbour from council house parents? Who knows?

The point here I think is that folk find their social level at university and ultimately you find in general the middle class mix with the middle class and the working class with working after the intriguing social experiment of the first term has ended.

You really dont want to be the working class kid left on their own.. pleasant it is not

Although born & raised in the SW, DD1 has northern vowels due to having 2 northerners as parents. Nobody has mocked her at Cambridge - the Master at her college comes from DH's side of the Pennines.

Her London-based friends are more stunned by the fact that she has both a driving licence and a car and that there is no public transport within a mile and a half of our house. Each to their own - vive la difference!

I wonder if University choice is a generational thing. In that a student meets their spouse at uni and then wish their children to go the same place? You here stories of one/two/three oxbridge families for instance.

Oh definitely. Research shows that parents tend to want their children to follow the same educational path they did and this can extend to choice of university for some groups of people.

Universities are very aware of their particular demographics. Some are more bothered and proactive about making changes than others though!

People can be very disparaging about non elite/RG universities ( especially on MN!) but it's these universities that are driving social mobility in the uk and they play an incredibly important part in the sector.

SueEllen

Do you think by identifying ex polys as the drivers of social mobility this shows that there is the expectation that lower socio economic groups see these as the 'stepping stones' to improved life chances/better careers while the RG remain to some extent the preserve of the middle classes?

Malbecfan - I am glad there is no accent mockery at Cambridge at least in your daughters' experience and I think for a lot of undergraduates hopefully there will be an appreciation of diverse and rich dialect.

However I think it is clear from this thread it is not a universal experience and for some university can be a socially disconcerting experience.

I think it would be disingenuous to think there is no class tension in Cambridge (as well as other unis) though I get the impression the situation has definitely improved over the decades.

The irony of oxbridge is that the colleges have actually the resources to support poorer students through grants etc but relatively few poorer pupils gets the grades necessary for entrance.

Is it that there is a certain subset of universities where these problems arise?

Do you think by identifying ex polys as the drivers of social mobility this shows that there is the expectation that lower socio economic groups see these as the 'stepping stones' to improved life chances/better careers while the RG remain to some extent the preserve of the middle classes?

To some extent this is what's happening. There's a theory ( that I don't necessarily subscribe to but it always get my students talking!) that says there are only so many places available 'at the top' and for lower socioeconomic groups to access elite universities and elite careers we need some middle class people to 'vacate' these spaces but that's not happening.....

One thing that I do believe though is that there are structural barriers and societal/cultural norms and expectations that prevent certain groups accessing top universities and elite careers. Universities and employers need to drive this change but young people also need access to high quality careers education and guidance- unfortunately this is something the government consistently fails to fund properly but that's a whole other rant!!

Interesting view about the middle classes having to vacate elite institutions to make way for the working class. Could cause a little contreversy!

However it would lead to more balanced make ups if student populations and help mitigate any class based discrimination as the working class would be less of a minority.

Careers guidance is a can of works really.

As there is a correlation between academic achievement and socio economic group are academic qualifications acting as a filter to limit the number of working class kids entering high status professions.

Medicine is a prime example of a profession that becomes more remote if you dont go to a public or grammar school as it requires high a level results (and is competetive)

Is it worth offering medicine as a career choice to kids at an inner city comp when very few will get the grades to pursue the profession? Would medical school be a good institutional fit for a lit of these children?

Of course it’s worth offering
Lots of assumptions there
There will be academically capable pupils in inner city comps
The problem is that if they were in a private school they’d have been able to access extra curricular activities to support their applications plus I think they’d be pushed to achieve highest grades

As there is a correlation between academic achievement and socio economic group are academic qualifications acting as a filter to limit the number of working class kids entering high status professions.

There can be but it's not as big an issue as previously thought and universities make contextual offers to mitigate this. The problem isn't necessarily attainment... students from lower socioeconomic group tend not to apply to elite universities which then lead to elite professions even when they have the appropriate grades. They self select out and it's mainly due to feeling like they won't/don't fit in.

Medicine is a prime example of a profession that becomes more remote if you dont go to a public or grammar school as it requires high a level results (and is competetive)

Is it worth offering medicine as a career choice to kids at an inner city comp when very few will get the grades to pursue the profession? Would medical school be a good institutional fit for a lit of these children?

Well of course it's worth offering this as a career choice .... although in career guidance terms we don't tell people what to do. Young people should be encouraged to be aspirational.
The issue isn't the grades as such it's more to do with economic, social and cultural capital.

Medicine is a degree course that requires significant work experience which can be difficult to get unless you know someone in the profession ( social capital) so it's helps if your parents or their friends are doctors.
It's also difficult to juggle Work experience/A levels/medicine degree with a part time job so you need wealthy parents to support you .... plus medicine is a longer degree so finance becomes an issue there.

There are structural issues which impact students from low socioeconomic groups across a range of degrees and careers . It's a big issue in the Arts. Work experience and placement years are vital if you want to work in this sector but students are often expected to do this for free. Only wealthy students can afford to move to London for a year and work for free. I work at a university where very few students can afford to do this. We've challenged employers who are sympathetic but know they can go to the RG university around the corner and get students who will work for free so they don't want to change their practices 🤷🏼‍♀️

Non- traditional students are two thirds more likely to choose a mid to low tariff university even when they have the grades to attend an elite university. Telling people to 'branch out' is completely ignoring the structural issues at play

I feel that they they are being failed by their schools/6th form colleges/other advisers in that case.

If I have A level grades of AAB I will look at universities with offers from AAA to BBB. I wouldn't choose CCC unless it was close to home and I eg had a family or for other reasons didn't want to go away. And there are lots of very good universities in that grade band that don't have a reputation for being stuffy or elite. For example, Liverpool or Glasgow compared with St Andrews or Exeter.

My son's 6th form college made it very clear that you apply to the universities you have the grades for and you need the highest grades you can get to be with like-minded people. According to them, someone who is capable of AAA doesn't want to be in a uni on a course with CCC grade students and they would not encourage that. I guess that is a bit snobby in its own way but on grounds of intellectual ability not background.

I went to a northern RG uni with an Essex accent. Made friends in halls with a couple of Scousers, a Brummie, a Geordie, girl from Cambridgeshire, lad from Portsmouth, "posh" Londoner, and Devonian. Best friends from my course were Northumbrian. No-one gave a shit about accents, beyond drunken first year comparisons of the different ways to say grass and glass.

I don't recognise the picture being painted here. Which isn't to say it doesn't happen, obviously, but it's certainly not universal.

If I have A level grades of AAB I will look at universities with offers from AAA to BBB. I wouldn't choose CCC unless it was close to home and I eg had a family or for other reasons didn't want to go away. And there are lots of very good universities in that grade band that don't have a reputation for being stuffy or elite. For example, Liverpool or Glasgow compared with St Andrews or Exeter.

But you're approaching this as someone who isn't worried about fitting in, possibly as someone who understands the university system and where university is a natural progression. I'm talking about students where just considering university as an option at all is a pretty daunting prospect.

First generation students from low socioeconomic groups tend to be more risk averse when it come to university choices. I've come across A* students who have chosen to stay in their job at Tesco on the checkout because it's deemed less risky than going to university.

These students will choose lower tariff universities because they don't want to risk not getting the grades or not being clever enough when they get there, they'll choose local because it's cheaper and familiar plus students will probably sound like them .... that's if they choose to go to university in the first place.
These students have a different type of cultural capital which makes them feel like they don't fit in at certain universities.

My son's 6th form college made it very clear that you apply to the universities you have the grades for and you need the highest grades you can get to be with like-minded people. According to them, someone who is capable of AAA doesn't want to be in a uni on a course with CCC grade students and they would not encourage that. I guess that is a bit snobby in its own way but on grounds of intellectual ability not background.

And that's good advice but what I'm saying is there are structural barriers in place that stop certain group from thinking like this.
For some students, going to university puts them out of their comfort zone in a big way so self preservation kicks in and they'll choose the less risky ( in their eyes) option.

According to them, someone who is capable of AAA doesn't want to be in a uni on a course with CCC grade students and they would not encourage that. I guess that is a bit snobby in its own way but on grounds of intellectual ability not background.

Was this a sixth form college with a rather atypical 'sixth form college intake, or did they somehow manage to keep the You won't be happy being forced to mix with CCC students talk given to the AAA students a secret from their CCC peers?

My son's 6th form college made it very clear that you apply to the universities you have the grades for and you need the highest grades you can get to be with like-minded people. According to them, someone who is capable of AAA doesn't want to be in a uni on a course with CCC grade students and they would not encourage that. I guess that is a bit snobby in its own way but on grounds of intellectual ability not background.

Although, while encouraging students to be aspirational is a good thing and students should apply for courses they're capable of getting a place in, I do hope they phrased this in a more appropriate way.....

I went to Manchester which is RG and it has lots of local students. Never witnessed anything of this sort of when I was there.

I've come across A students who have chosen to stay in their job at Tesco on the checkout because it's deemed less risky than going to university*. ONE! Not lots - let’s put that into perspective please. This accent nonsense is ridiculous.

@NotDonna

I've come across A students who have chosen to stay in their job at Tesco on the checkout because it's deemed less risky than going to university*. ONE! Not lots - let’s put that into perspective please. This accent nonsense is ridiculous.

Actually that was one specific example of someone choosing Tesco rather than university. She stands out in my memory because she was predicted all A*s at A level and I interviewed her for my PhD. Over the course of my research I've spoken to hundreds of students and analysed data which includes hundreds of thousands of university applicants. All the trends I've outlined have been supported by thorough, peer reviewed, academic research. I'm not making this stuff up - it's my job to know this stuff.

SueEllen

Would RG universities accepting BTECs aid in some of the poorer student university choice?

Do working class children choose A levels (and GCSEs) that do not align with RG universty criteria?

Just thinking considerations like this may allow rebalancing social intake at unis.

One thought I had about outreach and other means of addressing working class uptake of elite university places was that if there are a constant number of places available (vaguely true for oxbridge) then every place taken by a bright wc kid through outreach activity would mean one less place for a 'traditional' applicant

Oxford and Cambridge now are proud of their increasing number of state applicants (not necessarily from the lowest socio economic groups though) but this seems to be paralleled by an increase in accusations of anti public school bias.

While I am sure this is not true public school representatives seem to be wary of this trend.

The public school applicants that would have got places in yesteryear may have certain preferences in terms of insurance choice. (a certain subset of the RG)

The accent issue I think shouldn't necessarily be trivialised as it is a symptom of a wider malaise that of class discrimination in a university setting.

Though this may effect a minority of students there experience is important to address.

We do not turn a blind eye to racism. Mocking some one because of aspects of their ethnicity is unacceptable so why shouldn't mocking people because of their region of origin or social background be so?

There was a grim experience of a girl at Durham in one of the links here so I think it is worth further study to see if this behaviour is widespread and whether it impacts on students uni choice.

Would RG universities accepting BTECs aid in some of the poorer student university choice?

The BTEC issue pops up every now and then which often prompts a wider look at entry requirements. The thing about entry requirements is that they have a dual purpose. On one hand they're a way of positioning yourself in the market place. The higher the entry requirements the more prestigious you appear to be. Universities are actually free to offer whatever they like ( and often do).
The other purpose should be about prior knowledge and academic ability. I'm a big advocate for universities retaining their autonomy which means being able to set their own entry requirements but they must be able to justify them. If you don't accept btec then there should be a clear and transparent reason - not just a blanket policy on not accepting btec students.

I work at a university which widely accepts btecs but we have certain courses that don't and this is because we expect students to have prior knowledge which can't be gained from any btecs currently available.

Do working class children choose A levels (and GCSEs) that do not align with RG universty criteria?
We know that different groups behave differently in terms of career decision making with working class students more likely to choose a vocational route. Some of this can be addressed through good quality careers education and guidance but some of the reasons are structural- it's important for universities to be aware of these trends and structural barriers when setting entry requirements and making offers.
But to get an offer a student needs to apply in the first place and that's a much harder issue to address!

Some good RG engineering courses accept BTECs but require a maths A level as well - 'prior knowledge and academic ability' as you say.

@OnTheBenchOfDoom

There was a report done by a Durham university student on this very subject. Guymere it is rife at Durham, local students feel very excluded. Even on Radio 4 Woman's Hour a few weeks ago they covered the fact that Northern accents in a workplace are still perceived as lower class.

www.palatinate.org.uk/report-alleges-verbal-and-physical-abuse-against-northern-students-at-durham-university/

I am a Northerner and I am very aware of how my accent is perceived by others.

Same for me as a cockney, although I try to speak well, the accent is there.. I have felt very obviously different in my previous line of work (the Mayor's office)

London is an exception to most other areas because of the cost and also that the idea of living in London is quite marmite.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. London is a huge city that has some universities. It don't have the same studenty feel or university community feel that a university city like eg York or Newcastle has. And nothing I have read on here, in TSR or the WIWIKAU Facebook page makes going to university in London an attractive option to me.

I am from London, and DD has been to London several times, and she had no wish to study in London at all. Living in Yorkshire DD looked at universities from Bristol in the south to Newcastle in the north, and plumped for Newcastle. She never had the "I'm not going south to university" mentality and kept an open mind.

Re accents - I worked in Sheffield for several years. Some of my colleagues used to tell me I had a posh accent. I told them it wasn't at all posh, but a typical south London accent. It's interesting that a southern accent was viewed as posh, just because it was southern and not a Sheffield/North Derbyshire accent.