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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Real problem or is this banter about home regions

153 replies

mids2019 · 24/10/2020 08:46

I feel this is an issue that has been a feature of universities for years

As a northerner going to an RG uni was socially difficult experience and I did try and suppress my accent.

I didn't mind friendly banter based on accent but did feel my background precluded me from certain peer groups.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/oct/24/uk-top-universities-urged-act-classism-accent-prejudice?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

OP posts:
mids2019 · 30/10/2020 00:12

Can I ask the question to parents as I am

'Has your university experience (positive or negative) effected the advice you have given your children regarding university choice? '

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 30/10/2020 00:14

The Cambridge summer pool allowing offers to be made to applicants who were rejected post interview if they make the appropriate grades could look like bypassing the interview assessment entirely as you are simply looking at grades.

Not really- I'm sure the students who get these offers won't have done terribly in the interviews.

I think these approaches are just redressing the balance of inequalities in previous education to some extent but without compromising their own entry standards. Seems fair enough to me.

Rummikub · 30/10/2020 00:15

Despite contextualised offers and the summer pool the vast majority of undergrads at Oxbridge are privately educated?

I think it’s more controversial to uphold a system that effectively prevents those able state school students having the opportunity to gain a place at Oxbridge.

SueEllenMishke · 30/10/2020 08:05

One thing that concerns me slightly about contexualisation of grades is that in effect you are allowing some one from a deprived with slightly lower grades to enter a university.

As others have mentioned it's about recognising that people from deprived backgrounds are at a disadvantage. It's often done on postcode and school attended and is the recognition that someone getting ABB from a poor achieving school is equivalent to AAA from a high performing school. It's not about lowering standards or just letting anyone in...

If the number of places at elite universities are constant (approximately) then allowing a student from a deprived background to enter with a reduced tariff will mean that someone from a more conventional background to lose out.

But young people from deprived backgrounds have been missing out for decades. It's about ensuring anyone with the potential and ability has the opportunity to attend an elite university regardless of their background. Parental income is still the biggest indicator of future earnings and success.

For instancence two Cambridge applicants (one from a deprived background one from traditional) narrowly miss out on places due to grades but there is contexualusation offered to the deprived one of the two so a place is made for her bot not for the other applicant?
I can see how contextualisation of grades can be perceived as a form if positive discrimination by some

Positive discrimination is illegal. It's about levelling the playing field. The offer is only one part of the application process and they aren't getting a place just because they're from a deprived background. They're still getting there on merit and it's a competitive process.

In a sense this may allow some resentment to build up amongst traditional applicants especially when some of the contexulisation criteria are vague as well as its application.

It's often clear how the contextualised offers are made. Universities have an obligation to be clear and transparent about their application process.

There is a need to allow more working class children with the appropriate ability to attend elite universities but I think the solution is to expand the number of places rather than modifying entry standards (even if done for entirely laudable reasons)

Until relatively recently universities were subject to student number controls meaning they were told by the government how many students they could recruit with huge fines for over recruitment.
Those controls have been removed but universities still only have a finite amount of space. You can only over recruit by so many before student satisfaction and teaching quality starts to be compromised.

When oxbridge proudly state ever increasing proportions of state school applicants how do the parents of children at independent schools feel when their children narrowly miss out on places ? Would it not be natural to feel some sort of discrimination is at play?

There has been discrimination at play for generations but it's not against students from independent schools!! Like I said, it's about levelling the playing field. Attending an independent school should not be a free pass into an elite university. Widening participation and contextual offers isn't about stopping advantaged people from getting into elite universities it's about ensuring those from disadvantaged backgrounds get a fair shot at it too....

SueEllenMishke · 30/10/2020 08:18

The Cambridge summer pool allowing offers to be made to applicants who were rejected post interview if they make the appropriate grades could look like bypassing the interview assessment entirely as you are simply looking at grades.

Not at all. These applicants will still have performed well, it's just that someone else may have performed better on the day. Think about job interviews. Just because you don't get offered a job doesn't mean you performed badly it just means someone else performed better.

It's also recognition that some groups of applicants will have an advantage at the interview stage - they may have been coached, might have parents who are alumni etc. It's just another way of addressing disadvantage.

ErrolTheDragon · 30/10/2020 08:21

Despite contextualised offers and the summer pool the vast majority of undergrads at Oxbridge are privately educated?

Where on earth did you get that idea from?Confused that's simply not true any more. The majority are now state educated. The statistics are all easily available.

What is true is that the ratio of Indy/state students is greater than the ratio of Indy/state secondary pupils. Even then, the media is somewhat prone to quoting the numbers of ks3 Indy pupils rather than the numbers of sixth formers which is a lot higher. The other thing that's true is that from the state sector there's a high proportion from grammar schools and the 'super acadamies' and selective London sixth forms. Well, no shit, Sherlock.

MarchingFrogs · 30/10/2020 09:03

Despite contextualised offers and the summer pool the vast majority of undergrads at Oxbridge are privately educated?

www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-statistics/undergraduate-students/current/school-type
www.cam.ac.uk/news/record-number-of-undergraduate-admissions-at-cambridge-with-no-required-deferrals-and-highest-ever

Even assuming that the 'oldest' undergraduates at Oxford are those who started in 2017, when the split was only 55:45 state:indy (and it has crept up in subsequent years), that won't give you a vast majority privately educated. The state:indy ratio has been higher than Oxford's over recent years, with the 2020 intake c.70% state educated.

Although it has to be said, merely paying fees for one's DC to attend school doesn't necessarily give them an educational advantage sufficient to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, so to speak; there is a wide range within the world of independent schools, including the 'just not terribly good and a given quite bright pupil would probably have achieved better grades at their local comprehensive school' and schools actually setting out to provide for needs other than the purely academic.

Xenia · 30/10/2020 09:18

They are complicated issues. Even 20 y ears ago good universities would look for the person from the sink comprehensive where hardly anyone went to university who was the outlier who got AAB when everyone else got Cs and give them extra credit for that. I am not against that although people can game the system and we need to be careful it does not become unfair. I am not so happy with very broad contextualised offers such as if you are in the 40% of schools with worst A levels - a massive massive group then that counts in your favour (I think Bristol's system works like that).

I have paid day school fees and felt the system was fair even for my son who now drives a van for a living. He had his chance, missed his offer at Exeter, went to Reading, got his third and is very happy, postman for 3 years, now van driver he hopes for life (he has not featured in his school's glossy magazine of what old boys are doing now yet... although I think it might be quite fun to see him in his work uniform in there. For social mobility you need some to "rise" and some to fall - clogs to clogs in 3 generations as they say. He is doing his bit to make way for others. I agree with the comment above that not everyone does academically well at a fee paying school and indeed some of those schools take children who could not pass the entrance test for harder to get into state (grammar) and private schools with entrance tests most people fail.

I am more interested in what happens when people graduate and what positive discrimination may be operating at that point and how fair things are. There are very strong views on all sides in these things., My son applied for a job yesterday although there are only 2 vacancies so is not likely to get it and I really did not have much idea what helps you on the application form as I have not completed one for about 20 years plus. Probably pot luck as ever. I graduated in 1982 in the worst time with 3 m unemployed for 50 years in terms of numbers unemployed, applied to 139 firms and only got a job after 25 interviews and that was having done extremely well at university (prizes etc). Very hard then and very hard now unless you want the easy to get van driver job of course.... we joke the only qualification my son really ever needed as that he passed his driving test at 17.

As someone mentioned above more pupils are at private schools in sixth form than at other stages - I think is 20% and plenty are in posh comps with high results and state grammars too. it is a very complicated and mixed picture.

ErrolTheDragon · 30/10/2020 09:33

Van driver or postie seems like a good secure job to many nowadays!
Maybe OT, but I'm curious Xenia - with the benefit of hindsight, do you think this son might have been better served if his school had encouraged him to look at vocational choices rather than the traditional uni route?

Rummikub · 30/10/2020 12:18

Yeah ok fair enough!

I guess I’m basing my thoughts on articles like this:
www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/23/bame-students-make-up-one-fifth-of-new-oxford-undergraduates

I should’ve said private schools are over represented at Oxbridge

ErrolTheDragon · 30/10/2020 13:50

What proportion of 18/19 year olds are from BAME backgrounds? The oxford numbers aren't too far adrift of the numbers in other unis nowadays - definitely moving in the right direction. Of some relevance to the original subject of the thread might be, what proportions actually apply?

And that piece was doing that thing of mentioning the 7% privately educated rather than just the 16% for secondary - I'm pretty sure that the stats for whether the student was privately educated or not are based entirely on the latter so the lower number really isn't relevant.

Rummikub · 30/10/2020 13:57

I’m not sure of bame 18/19 year olds but from general population figures I read 7.5% asian, 3.? Black, 2.2% mixed

Rummikub · 30/10/2020 13:58

I don’t understand your second paragraph re the 7%/16%

Rummikub · 30/10/2020 14:01

Got it now

“significantly underrepresented given that only 7% of pupils in the UK go to private school; an exception is sixth form, where the figure is about 16%.“

Xenia · 30/10/2020 14:01

ErrolTheDragon, I doubt it. My son did want to go to university and is glad he went, apparently but is happy with earning £22k a year for life. he is now over 30 so the chance he was just messing raound for a few years is unlikely. He could of course have done tons of other "more suitable" low paid middle class jobs like journalism, computers (in fact he is good with those and could make a lot more money than he does doing that), music (he had a music scholarship to his school and grade 8s etc etc, best trumpeter in his public school) so you can image how frustrating he must be for teachers and parents and friends who have their own "world view" that you get on, "do well". However his choice is a valid choice of his own. eg if there is unpaid time available in a particular week he will rush to be the one taking those unpaid days. he is happy. So many people at all income levels are depressed or sick and all sorts of problems but he has none of that. I don't think pushing him into plumbing training aged 16 would really have made much difference and he has been offered all kinds of trade courses anyway. As I say he is a success in terms of social mobility as he has gone down which means someone who didn't have his advantages can rise. Under primogeniture were we landed gentry etc he of my 5 children would be supreme by birth position.......3rd child but oldest boy.

Rummikub · 30/10/2020 14:07

So taking the figure of 16% still means that privately educated are still over represented.

It’s a complex issue of course that needs several layers managing.

As pointed out up thread, the students from state school include grammar and highly selective schools. Parents are aware of these ‘good’ schools and may move into catchment areas or access tutoring for their children. This requires financial means and a family prioritising education.

ErrolTheDragon · 30/10/2020 14:20

@Rummikub

I’m not sure of bame 18/19 year olds but from general population figures I read 7.5% asian, 3.? Black, 2.2% mixed
I'm sure that can't be the correct figure for people of student age - if it was then it would suggest that these groups were significantly overrepresented even at oxford, which I don't believe is the case.
PresentingPercy · 30/10/2020 14:46

Census 2011 Bame figures attached.

Real problem or is this banter about home regions
eddiemairswife · 30/10/2020 15:41

I think a fair proportion of Oxbridge students come from abroad. The boat race crews nowadays seem to consist mainly of huge Americans.

PresentingPercy · 30/10/2020 16:08

Nearly half of all students at Oxford are postgrad. Around 11,000 are international. 14,000 uk students. So boat race crew are there for two reasons: rowing and a bit of study thrown in!

Rummikub · 30/10/2020 16:17

Yes I was surprised by both sets of figures

eddiemairswife · 30/10/2020 16:32

I think the Boat Race crews should all be undergraduates. Same with the University Challenge teams.

SarahAndQuack · 30/10/2020 16:35

@PresentingPercy

Nearly half of all students at Oxford are postgrad. Around 11,000 are international. 14,000 uk students. So boat race crew are there for two reasons: rowing and a bit of study thrown in!
That's not true. They wouldn't be there unless they were academically able. And they're not all postgrads. I taught a student who rowed boat race, and she was an undergrad, and she got something like the third first in her year.
PresentingPercy · 30/10/2020 17:30

I didn’t say they were all post grads but a lot are. James Cracknell at age 46 rowed for Cambridge last year. I also didn’t say they were not academically able. They have often attended American universities and the last undergrad boat club President at Oxford was in 2015. The rowers can come from anywhere and yes, they do have to be enrolled at the university but.... they do a hell of a lot of training leading up to this race. Hence it’s less about their education for some months!

SarahAndQuack · 30/10/2020 18:17

I'm objecting to the idea they do 'a bit of study'.

That just isn't true.

If a student is meant to be rowing boat race and their academic performance is suffering, they can be required to give up on the rowing.

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