Applying for Uni 2019 Part 5: UCAS, offers and exam season looming

[NewModelArmyMayhem18]

New thread started. Here's the previous one

2boys absolutely unnecessarily snarky. No “myths” spouted- please point out any factually inaccurate statements I have made.

My comments were in direct response to a previous poster mulling over whether or not to take out a maintenance loan when they had the means to cover it. I expressed my opinion nothing more and I’m sure most readers will have taken it as exactly that. In no way could my comments be read as any kind of criticism of those who do for whatever reason access student finance. And for what it’s worth most of the people I know in a similar position to us do have their students take out loans and some do not subsidise their children in any way after school (not that I feel I have to justify whatever anyone chooses to do in any way).

How my opinion and situation could “put people off” accessing finance is beyond me. Honestly I’m quite taken aback by your comments, especially your suggestion that rich parents should stay off university boards 😳.

Just sorted Student Finance for dd. Will have same arrangement as we had with ds who graduates this summer . She will take the maintenance loan and we pay accommodation - which could be anywhere between 4 and 9.5 k depending where she ends up. Ds has been pretty frugal with his loan but suspect dd may need all hers as will be city based.

I think the issue can be that many parents new to university do not initially realise that the maintenance part of the student loan is means tested on parents income, so the top line amount of money your DC can actually get will often need to be topped up by parents.
I certainly know plenty of people who found it quite hard to have to find the money every month when they were used to not having to contribute to education.
Obviously if you are used to paying school fees, this make it much easier as you are already used to having a monthly outgoing for education.
I also know DC who will end up with no debts at all, due to grandparents paying for everything.
In my own case I’m looking at the possibility of have both my DC starting in September, meaning we are going to have a financially restrained 3 years.
If I had a choice (obviously I don’t) and my DC could get a full maintenance loan and fees loan I would get them to take it, as I agree with Martin Lewis re considering the loan as more like a graduate tax that they will be charged once they start earning.
I’d rather save the money we will have to pay them to help them make their way once they have their degrees.
But that’s only my personal thinking.
I also think it’s everyones choice to use their hard earned money however they wish.

Sorry not snarky at all.
There is lots of reseearch out there showing poor kids are put of university due to so called debt.
Bloody hell why the hell would ITV and Martin Lewis spend 30 minutes of primetime TV, every sodding September, trying to demyth and "jargon bust" student loans please.

Every university open day and offer's day we attended (admittely not RG) had student finance loan talks for parents and students.
Ever single one said what I said in my last post Lincoln, Derby, Hull and Coventry all moan about rich parents saying the same as pp.

It the bollocks said about not wanting your DC in debt, not wanting the worry over whole owns the debt.

I seen posters say you shouldn't use SFE if you can as your adding to the countries debt. There posters regularly on MN spoutiing off about stopping lower ranked uni's being universities. That kids shouldnt go to university unless they end up on 6 figure salaries.

I live in an area where less than 15% go to university. We know kids with 3 A at A level who work in pubs and hairdressers, because they and their families don't want them to have £50000 of debt at 22.

People on here not have a clue, my lad was only encouraged to try university, because of 2 teachers telling him it wasn't debt and it could open doors, an apprenticeship couldn't.

The apprencticeship selling advert even said you will be £45000 better off on our scheme, as you won't have student debts.

People read these threads without ever posting, dont put people off.

Start your own bloody thread about is SFE worth it. Not on a general thread.

I think you are conflating two different things.

Fwiw I have no issues at all with dd taking on as much loan as she can. If we were eligible for the max maintenance loan I would encourage her to take it. I agree calling it debt is unhelpful.

But I can also understand why parents who can afford it will want to pay themselves- they will save their dcs all that interest down the line which is also fine.

They aren't responsible for the poor take up of uni in your area.

And I 100% agree that there are posters here who argue that unless you are doing PPE at Durham or Oxbridge then you have no right to a loan and you are just a burden to the taxpayer, and they are very off putting. I hope those posters end up having grandchildren that go to their local ex poly to do education studies and have to see the positive side of it, it will do then good.

But they aren't the same as paying fees for your kid.

@2BoysandaCairn

In previous posts I have

Said student finance is a tax not a debt

Said that student “debt” does not of itself prevent taking out a mortgage

Every open day we’ve been at (2 children, 8 different unis, RG and non) have quite rightly had well attended finance talks (not sure what your point is here).

It is not “bollocks” to say that we don’t want our kids to graduate with “debt”. It’s our absolute privilege to have that choice, something I repeatedly stress.

We do feel that as we can afford it we won’t access govt funds - not sure what’s wrong with that? Again, a massive privilege and implying precisely nothing in respect of people who don’t have that choice

The families with kids who don’t go into HE because of fear of “debt” only do so (in my opinion) because they are uninformed as to the nature of student finance - a tax, not a debt, as I have repeatedly said. Schools should do so much more to educate their students and their families in this regard, something Martin Lewis has repeatedly said.

I have never said student finance is “not worth it”. Neither has anyone else as far as I’m aware. Our choice not to use it does not mean it’s a stupid system. I absolutely support full inclusion in higher education and find it very depressing to read and hear people saying they won’t go to uni due to “debt”. Furthermore I think maintenance loans need to increase or the thresholds fundamentally reviewed or the means testing to change to take into account outgoings as well as income or accommodation costs capped at the level of loans or all the above to improve the situation of students from poorer families.

2boys the choices I’m able to make do not impact you in any way. You have misrepresented me and others in your comments. You seem to suggest that a certain section of parents do not have a right to comment on these things- Imagine the outrage if I said poor people don’t have a valid point of view. Rightly outrageous.

However, I think we can agree the current system is imperfect and loads more education needs to be done to ensure every capable child can fulfill their potential at higher education regardless of background.

Society has a cross-section of opinions and all posters are doing is putting across how they are going to deal with SFE. It is still useful information for those people on MN who are looking for tips/advice/ideas on how to deal with the minefield of student finance. If someone chooses to fund their DC and not take any SFE then that is fine in exactly the same way as someone who's DC takes the SFE in full, whatever their circumstances.

FWIW, the debate over RG/non-RG that pops up occasionally is valid for certain degrees. At some non-RG unis the degrees are not accredited by the professional bodies that the area of study is in so you could question if doing that particular degree was beneficial for the student or not.

My DS will be taking whatever loan he can get. We will be paying accommodation for him (sold something big to pay for it).

We can’t afford to pay the whole caboodle up front but, even if we could, I don’t think we would do it that way. I think he would take the loan and then we would reimburse him any repayments he made in the future. This is purely hypothetical for us, but my thinking is that if he leaves university and doesn’t get a job over the earnings threshold for repaying then he’s lost nothing.

But if he does earn over the threshold then it’s a win for other taxpayers as he will both be repaying the loan and paying more tax on the higher earnings. Where we live, it’s very unlikely that he would get such a job without a good degree, so it would be a win for him too. Win-win situation.

Obviously other people do what’s right for their family and circumstances and that’s fine too.

Fazackerley now your doing it the posters aren't saving any interest. Even if VanCleef's child owes £10000000 at 100% they only pay the same as my lad with 15000 at 6%. Ie 9% of any income over £25000. So if my lad chooses to work in the youth/care sectors he pay nothing. Exactly same as yours and VanCleef's child.
If all 3 earn £75000 they pay 9% of £50000.
It is not difficult to understand.

I have CSE education and I get it.

Finally I am off, I am a trustee of 2 local chartities which provide grants to local kids (state educated) to either pay for books/accommadiation at university or hardship funds to access FE/HE. Ie bus passes to local sixth form, taxi to apprenticeship because there is no bus, train tickets to uni open/offers days.
I am at present with 2 others trying to get sports England to continue funding our 2 outreach sports coaches to provide free lessons to 15 local primary schools. I have just mentored 2 girls into FE for A levels.

I meet the kids I worry about every week.

So sorry if ruther a few feathers.
I dont really care either way.

Actually seeing I have helped a couple posters about student accounts and explained how student loans work.
I am going to lurk and leave you all too it.
Most the posts on MN education are for private schools, RG universiities and the 4 Oxbridge threads every year.
Seeing we use a special measures comp, Lincoln uni on an hated unicondition offer and Ds2 will go to an ex agri college. I have nothing to add and dont belong here.

Good luck to Dc and I hope they get to their choosen uni, wether University centre Grimsby or Oxbridge.

2Boys don’t go! You offered facts and figures, thank you.

The thing that was confusing me was if the 9% was fixed. My menopausal brain fog was getting the better of me. So what I can gather is there is a variable rate of interest on the overall loan (tuition + maintenance) depending on how much you earn and what the RPI is, which tots the total loan amount up until 30 years later when it is cancelled. Most people never repay it. And actually what you are saying is this amount is almost irrelevant.

Because the loan you pay back each month is 9% of the amount you earn over £25k. So for £27000 wage you have to pay £15 a month back (9% of £2000 divided by 12 months).

So, the biggest factor I suppose is if the 9% changes.

Is this right? May have to go and have a power nap after that....

2boys don’t be a dick. It’s not a competition for “how many disadvantaged people I know”. MN has a very wide membership and we all have valid contributions to make. Flouncing off because people have pulled you up on your comments is childish.

I assumed they save interest because if you pay the fees up front you don't pay any interest

So, the biggest factor I suppose is if the 9% changes.

Or if the term is extended from 30 years to 40 or more

www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/should-i-get-student-loan/#moral

Basically parents (who are very fortunate to have family savings that could be used to pay for university) have to have a crystal ball and ‘guess’ if their children are going to be really high earners. If yes, then it is better to not have the loan. In all other cases it’s best for them to take the loan financially, if questionably morally.

MN has a very wide membership and we all have valid contributions to make - totally agree, and no matter who we are, there are things that aren't obvious, that's why we ask or support.

Basically parents (who are very fortunate to have family savings that could be used to pay for university) have to have a crystal ball and ‘guess’ if their children are going to be really high earners

Their crystal ball also needs to tell them what might happen to this tranche of cash if they don't use it to pay for university costs. With the unknowns of Brexit and Corbyn, there's the real possibility that the values of investments may fall.
And also it needs to predict the DCs future choices re number of children, career breaks, part time working etc.

!

I know I am the least educated person (thickest) on this thread, but I am confused. Thats easy to be fair
But honestly whats morals got to do with student finance.
My Ds has to take £9250 per year to pay Lincoln for his course. Then each year he will ask for a maintenance, which we top up as best we can and he works behind a bar to pay too. He will then pay SFE 9% tax on any earnings over £25000 for 30 years.

He and we didn't ask for this, no a government "voted in" in 2010 and led by 3 expensively educated and from wealthy backgrounds, yes you Messers Cameron, Clegg and Osbourne, introduced it.
My Ds is using the system as designed by his countries elected government. Who by the way all got a free university education, paid by all taxpayers.
My Ds and his fellow students, will hopefully if all goes to plan, earn more as graduates so pay more tax then if they just left school, plus also pay back directly to their own costs.
Which is more then most of the people who designed and voted through the system have done.

So I ask again whats morally wrong with using SFE? Unless of course you beleive only the rich and the worthy poor should get a higher education?
Because if we only go back 99 years that was the case. Because only the wealthy could afford to be educated plus the odd chartity case. Bit like the Eton/Win Coll/St Pauls etc of today.
Is that what you want?
If so be honest please.

2Boys hello again - when I linked to the Martin Lewis article (my previous post) it was on the morals bit at the end. Above it were worked examples of how much you would save or gain in different scenarios of paying/not paying for tuition and maintenance. Basically, if you are going to be a really high earner (doctor/lawyer) it may make sense to not get the loans if parents can afford it. This is obviously very unfair on poorer families whose children could be the first to go to university for a high earning profession.
The morals bit was whether rich families should have loans for their children at all. Seeing at many ex-students will never pay the loans off, obviously everyone who is a tax payer is footing the bill.
As you can see above it’s not a fair system. As a pp and I have said you’ve got to have a ‘crystal ball’ to be able to work out the best scenario. Although most parents may not be able to afford anything other than topping up the maintenance bit anyway so there is no dilemma to have.

Thanks zanda
Sorry I just think mumsnet is a very middle class/high earner bubble, that's nothing like the real world. We as a family know no one who could every pay upfront.
We know at least 25 kids who went to university in last 3 years. All of us panicked about student loans and student accounts.
So researched, all of our kids where really worried about their "debts" and if we as families could afford them to go?

That's why I think it's so important to explain how it works.

I get many mumsnetters can afford to pay up front from saving them from private school fees. Uni fees are probably seen as a saving. But only 7/8% use private schools nationally and around us about 1 to 2%.
So I worry "normal parents/students" get put off.
This is a general UCAS/ uni application thread.
Anyway sorry for the derail.
I leave it now.
Just wish people would realise not everyone can afford to pay up front.
But this mumsnet. Home of private education and oxbridge or bust

2Boys our Dcs go to state school, which is why we have savings! My husband and I had very different upbringings - he didn’t even have central heating or a telephone until he moved out of his childhood home. I went to public school. They are lucky enough to have had a very diverse family background which, I think, helps them appreciate how fortunate they are.

I think it’s really important to talk about finance in this thread as it’s the stage everyone is at now, and because it is a maze and, as you have said, it has put families off. It took me a while to get my head round!

It was a Labour government that introduced tuition fees in 1998. Obviously increased hugely later.

I don’t think you can point to any parents of privately educated kids who have indicated they “don’t realise most people can’t pay up front”. Quite the opposite in fact. And if you read my previous recent posts you will see I agree there needs to be a massive reform of the system.

And do you know what - however our kids are educated and however their university experience is financed, they are all currently preparing to take exactly the same exams and all have exactly the same riding on the results. Come September/October they will all be experiencing exactly the same trepidation at leaving home, making new friends, fending for themselves and learning a new way of learning. That is something that brings us together surely?

DS finally went on the offers day visit to Bath yesterday.
It was lovely, helped by a glorious sunny day.
I was impressed by the department.
All up to DS now, he needs to make the final choice.
I must say it’s been a lovely time for DS and I, as he’s not at school and I work freelance, we have had lots of day trips to visit different Unis, it’s been very bonding and I’m going to miss having this special time together.
But I’m also glad we’re at the end of this stage and I’m looking forward to him having a more independent life away from home.

itscoldoutthere I loved the open days too - precious one on one time, and I’m generally nosy anyway so very enjoyable!! However, having seen 8 different places between the 2 children it’s good to move on 😉

Not wishing to derail and all that, but those who 'insist' that their DC don't take student loans do realise that the young person concerned can apply fpr the basic maintenance loan with no parental input whatsoever? Even the most biddable child might be tempted by £4000 extra spending money a year (which they may or may not ever have to repay...).