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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Is Oxford only for rich families?

334 replies

Foslady · 13/11/2018 07:24

My dd is taking GCSe’s Next year and her school are having various universities in to talk to the pupils. When the Oxford representatives came they mentioned that due to circumstances for one of the colleges there was a very generous bursary you can apply for. This particular college has the course that dd wants to study and now she’s thinking ‘why not?’. I want to support her in all her choices, academically she is quite gifted, and yes, there is a huge time period before university application, but I don’t know if we are the ‘right’ kind of people for Oxford. Up until recently I was a lone parent on a low wage. I now am with my partner but money is still tight (and to be honest if she was awarded the bursary it would be amazing , a massive help). I don’t want to ruin her dreams but at the same time, in reality, are they feasible or am I just kidding myself?

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ZackPizzazz · 14/11/2018 09:15

Good luck fosdaughter! I had the time of my life at Oxford and I'd do it again any time. So much incredible richness of opportunity in one place. Work hard, be determined and I have my fingers crossed for you :)

2BoysandaCairn · 14/11/2018 09:58

Good morning,
Yes good luck to Foslady dd, I wasn't asking why she went to the grammar, I was asking why Oxford went there, not a local comprehensive?
Sorry about spelling mistakes, on a phone in middle of market town, helping Ds2 sort out his National Citizen Service application and coaching local rugby team.
I was talking to head of sixth form, last week, parents evening for youngest, he was asking about eldest.
He said the thing which drives him mad, that he encouraged 4 brilliant kids, his words, to apply to Oxford or Cambridge, the best in school and all failed. But he says his wife's sixth form to the west of city, gets 8 kids into both this year and every year with same grades, and when he was at private school, they regularly got students into both with lesser grades and worse PS, so he now firmly believes it nothing to do with grades and all to do with your background. He is thoroughly -pissed off-, disheartened. Has he says up to DS1 year, the school never had 40% get A-C grades, then DS1 year get 62%, and he has kids with A at AS level predicted A and A at level, they go against parents and apply, and all but 1 gets no and other is totd no after interview.
Their parents, now say to him and their kids TOLD YOU SO!
Worst still he says is the effect on rest of school, none of this year 13's applied, no point last year where better then us Sir, also with Ds1 year and this year 13 and 12's the best are sticking to the likes of York, Nottingham, Newcastle with A* ands A predictions, so the lower ones like Ds1 don't look for aspiration choices, as the brightest go there. 80% of DS1 year went to local university, Ds1 went to Lincoln, friend to Huddersfield and few made Northumbria and leeds Beckitt.
I still say if Oxford turn down a girl who left school with A levels in History and English at A* and Biology at A, after attending our school and coming from a council estate, its certainly isn't her or the schools fault.

Bekabeech · 14/11/2018 10:05

2BoysandaCairn - That head of sixth form should contact Oxford and Cambridge and ask why none of his students were accepted. And ask them to come and do outreach in his college. All Colleges at both places have certain "linked" areas, where they go and do outreach. Maybe the linked College's aren't doing a great job? Maybe for some reason his Sixth Form isn't on the "needing extra help" list. And he should certainly be signposting the UNIQ and Sutton Trust summer schools, as ways to raise ambitions.

2BoysandaCairn · 14/11/2018 10:20

@TeentimesTwo
Of course the B grade where never going to Oxford or Cambridge, that was the 5 who got C or less in AS exams, the 6 who got A or B in AS went into different class, and left with A* and 5 A's, even though they lost a few lessons, the school righty?, made them the priority.
Ds went from E at AS to C at A level, with 45% of this lessons missing, what could that group have done.
He got a C in Criminology A level in 12 months, an A in As level, what could they have done in 2 years.
But the best thing is he has gone to University of Lincoln, first in family, and is having the time of his life, Lincoln understand kids like him never extra help and provided in built in the course. he will leave, hopefully in 3 years with a degree and is already considering doing a masters.
Thorough all of this, he is starting to look at different career choices then just being a police officer. He is looking at more policy making roles.
Think if that's what lowly Lincoln can do for kids like Ds1, what could bloody Oxford or Cambridge would do for the 4 who could have gone.
@BubblesBuddy
Maybe if kids in the north, had not grown up for the last 40 years, being told by the governments of Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and May, that they where second class citizens who had to lose their family's futures for the good of London and the SE. Plus watch their communities decline every year they lived, maybe they would not be so tribal, it makes you survive.
You also might not have Brexit, which will effect RG university's worst then the ex poly's too

ZackPizzazz · 14/11/2018 10:41

he now firmly believes it nothing to do with grades and all to do with your background

Does he seriously believe that? Just because he was unable to predict who would be admitted, he thinks it's all who you know? Because if he really thinks that way he's letting down his students. They deserve better.

Oxford admissions are done by the tutors. I've known several and heard them discuss it. They don't give a tiny stuff about your background. They care about how smart you are, how passionate about your subject, the way you think. They care about whether they can teach you, because they will be teaching you. And do you think they're all from privileged backgrounds themselves? My main Oxford tutor was a working class boy we used to call the Boy Wonder, because he was one of the youngest dons ever at 26. He'd earned a starred first at undergrad and flown through his PhD.

goodbyestranger · 14/11/2018 10:45

2Boys it sounds as though the girl in question with 2A* and an A applied before she had those grades, so her assessment would have been on GCSE contextualised plus aptitude test plus interview. Not trying to detract, but it's no good whipping up post selection grades like a rabbit out a hat.

Bekabeech · 14/11/2018 11:29

Sorry but there is a lot of "anti - South" rhetoric there. which is exactly why I know Oxford (and I assume Cambridge too) is reaching out more to get more students from the North and Wales.

I can't see why you think successive governments have been so "down on the North" as a whole. To be honest my Cousin who went to school in the North (normal Comp) was taken on trips to Oxford as a bright student. Whereas in my impoverished school in East London no one even visited Oxford or Cambridge, and the boy who applied in the year above me was the first one for several years (and went to Durham in the end).
But to give students a fair chance they need to know about schemes like LMH's foundation year, or the UNIQ or Sutton Trust summer schools. And if students apply for these they are both far more likely to get a place than those from a lot of Southern schools, who get in because no one with higher priority applied, and these courses give a huge leg up in actually getting in, as they show exactly what admissions Tutors are looking for.

Ontopofthesunset · 14/11/2018 11:48

If the guy at your kids' school thinks it is nothing to do with grades and all to do with your background, then he is in the wrong job and letting all his students down. I assume he's contacted the university to get feedback on all his students. He will know exactly what they didn't do well on, whether for example at interview they weren't convinced about the ability to cope with the course etc. He can invite Oxbridge colleges to come and visit - they don't just call up random schools and pitch up. Why doesn't he ask if students from his school can attend talks at other local schools if they're all in the same LA? As someone else has said, indvidual colleges have geographical outreach areas so he should have researched that. If the schools are letting the pupils down, you can't expect the universities to mop up.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 14/11/2018 12:21

They don't give a tiny stuff about your background.

Actually, they do.

Ok, I did Cambridge admissions not Oxford. But we do care, just not the way you think.

We would bloody love to admit more students from demographics who're underrepresented. There are systems to make sure students are flagged up to us if there's reason to think they might have had a rough ride, and we're explicitly instructed to take that into account when making a decision.

Most students who apply have the same grades, no matter what their background. There isn't much variation. You can be on track for stellar A Levels and still, there may well be 40 other candidates with equally stellar predictions competing for the same 10 places.

Foslady · 14/11/2018 13:36

2Boysandacairne I asked Dd about that, the Reps have booked to see ALL secondary schools on the area

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Bowchicawowow · 14/11/2018 13:43

This article has been posted on these types of threads before but for those who haven’t read it it’s good for thought.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/sep/23/comment.britishidentity

Bowchicawowow · 14/11/2018 13:45

David Lammy’s thoughts (which I know he has been slated for in some quarters).

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/20/oxford-cambridge-not-changed-diversity-even-worse-admissions

OneStepMoreFun · 14/11/2018 13:59

Sorry @Foslady - I haven;t read the full thread, so may be repeating but in a rush and want to remember to pass some info on.
Oxford is categorically NOT just for rich people. There are lots of very vibrant organisations there designed to encourage a wider spread of people to apply.
Take a look at [http://www.uniq.ox.ac.uk/aboutus UNIQ]]. It offers free or subsidised summer schools to state school students who want to get a feel for Oxford.
The Brilliant Club is also extremely supportive and comes into schools to run projects.

If she gets in, there's also a very strong social group for students who are the first in their families to go to uni. I forget its name but can find out for you. A friend of mine helps run it and if she wanted to be shown around, he could put her in touch with someone who won't be rich or privately educated so that she can see anyone is welcome.

OneStepMoreFun · 14/11/2018 14:00

Sorry - the UNIQ link failed. Here it is again:UNIQ

mateysmum · 14/11/2018 14:06

*2Boys" It's great that your son is doing well and having a ball, but your understanding and attitude towards Oxbridge admissions is way off.
Nearly everyone who applies to Oxford is expecting stellar A grades. There are many times more candidates than places. That is why Oxford runs pre tests for many subjects. These test different skills to A levels - more about thinking less about learning.Success in these tests is almost more important than A levels. Perhaps those you know did not do well.
Oxford is not only intellectually very demanding, the pace of work and the demands of the tutorial system mean selection is rigorous.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BACKGROUND
You are talking utter twaddle about governments' attitude to northern kids. I am as northern as they come. It was the changing attitudes to women's education and careers in the late 70's and 80's that motivated me...a woman prime minister who came from a working class background in Lincolnshire - close to you I'm guessing and made it to Oxford and to Downing St - yes that's Maggie Thatcher. My niece and nephew, the children of teachers, went to northern schools and both have Oxbridge firsts.
Tell your head of sixth form to get his finger out and look closer to home for the reasons his pupils are not getting in to Oxbridge.

Lindtnotlint · 14/11/2018 14:24

Go for it FosDaughter! And yes, like other people you might not get in. (Believe it or not this happens to “posh” people too...) The standard is very high and there are more good applicants than places. So the right attitude is to try, give it a real go, but not to fixate. And all the stuff you do to prep will stand you in good stead wherever you end up, so it’s a no regret move. Good luck!

ZackPizzazz · 14/11/2018 14:36

I stand corrected, LRD Grin but yes, what I mean is that admissions tutors are categorically not selecting people positively on the basis of privileged "background".

Justanothermile · 14/11/2018 18:14

My Dd did the UNIQ summer school in July and had an amazing time. I'm happy to answer any questions about the practicalities and her experience there.

Worth noting that even for UNIQ, there are many more applications than places, but as the application process is similar to actually applying for university (grades, personal statement, reference by school etc), it's a good experience to at least try.

VenusInSpurs · 14/11/2018 19:56

Are there practice tests for the pre-tests

Do the Oxbridge-orientated private schools prepare pupils for the pre-tests? Have lessons or sessions on ‘ways to think’? I bet many do. How can a state school student get a pointer towards what is required?

Foslady · 14/11/2018 20:00

Once again, a massive thank you to everyone for all their help, advice and encouragement. We’ve just got back from 6th form open evening and the support offered by the school backed up by the 6th formers means that we are both buzzing! Loads of pastoral support, opportunities and help with every aspect of uni application/higher apprenticeships.
The teachers are also going to look into the summer schools for us and how to apply, and webgot some great feedback from the departments she wants to study in.
Here’s to the future!Wine

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Foslady · 14/11/2018 20:03

Venusinspurs one of the parents asked that question - they ask any pupil who is thinking OxBridge to let them know ASAP and then they work with them. In the last 8 years I think them said they’ve had 40 pupils get places. Ok - probably not as high as most private schools but I think it’s pretty good

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PancakeMum6 · 14/11/2018 23:42

Wow - that’s 5 a year! I’d have thought that’s only behind the top top private schools really. I know our city has two private schools and a grammar school and none get numbers anywhere near that (each get 2/3 a year I believe) so she’s definitely in a good place for applying - sounds like the school will be really supportive and knowledgeable which is great.

I know everyone’s already reassured you but I’d say economic background has very limited impact on Oxbridge as a possibility from what limited knowledge I have - so many bursaries on offer because many of the colleges are so wealthy, and the terms are short. Only drawback may be working during uni, but with short terms hopefully your DD will be able to hold a job back home.

And I also think it’s my DD’s accent comments that are referred to in this thread Grin think they accidentally got taken out of context - she and her friends (from a poor northern city, working class background) do find the southern accent intimidating, because they only hear it on tv. It’s like hearing an American accent in real life - it seems funny, surreal, and they associate it with ‘posh’ people (ie people in powerful, seemingly unobtainable careers - politicians, actors etc). DD1 was taken down to look at Oxford and hated it because she had a lot of white mc kids (grammar/private school educated, accent she associated with middle and upper classes, kids who ride horses and play croquet - DD has seen a horse once in her life and thought croquet was a fake game from Alice in Wonderland!) telling her “oh yes everyone’s normal”. That freaked her out, because to her these were not ‘normal’ people. I’m sure theyre all lovely and she’d have been able to interact with them if she got there - she just didn’t feel like she fitted in to the atmosphere. They laughed at how she said “lovely” and were fascinated by her background, so se felt watched and out of place.

However - that’s all social. Sounds like your DD won’t struggle with that aspect. Economically, as a single mum on a teacher's salary, I know we could have afforded to send her there if she’d wanted (and it’s under consideration for DD2, who is white and was in our family from a younger age so is probably socially more mc) and where she’ll end up won’t be significantly better economically.

Your DD sounds fab and very well supported! She’ll end up somewhere wonderful.

2BoysandaCairn · 15/11/2018 09:49

No pancakemum, it was my comment that my Yorkshire Dc struggled to understand some of his southern counterparts and they struggled with his accent and phrase's, they now understand each other. He was also shocked that he was most northern on course, he looks at Newcastle, Penrith and Scotland as truly northern.

So as my DC, aren't Oxford material, I thought I must be wrong, after all you lovely people said Oxford, is for all, so I googled outreach visits to our area and neighbouring city, not one came up. just how to contact our link college, and a piece by them on how well they are doing, though they showcased London visits.

I can't link, but look up the Guardian article, from 19/9/2018, so recent. Titled Oxford spends £108000 to recruit each extra low income student
Comments in it
Of the 5000 students in the 2 most disadvantaged postcode categories, who got the grades to attend Oxbridge, Oxford only got 220 in 2015/16.

By 2020/1 Oxford aims to increase to 9.5% of it's admissions to be from deprived areas, which equates to 23 extra students, less than one per college says the head of Lady Margaret Hall college, for comparison St Pauls school had 38 boys accepted last year! he said.

The warden of Wadham College says we "have to recognise that people in failing schools with difficult socio-economic backgrounds who get themselves in a position to make a competitive application have achieved something extraordinary" he continues "I mean someone who got an A and two B's from a crap comprehensive in Hull is capable of being as clever, if not cleverer, than someone 3 A*'s from Westminster"

So it appear that my doom laden perceptions, far from being false are too sadly backed by Oxford's own figures, and even 3 of it's own college heads admit they are failing poor kids badly.

But then again if a pp classes Margaret Thatcher, as comimg from a work class background, her father owned 2, yes 2, grocery shops and was a prominent local councillor, then I suppose to MN and Oxford they are accepting poor and disadvantaged kids.

Finally I still am intrigued to find why Oxford's Lincoln College, visited a Grammar which averages 5 entrants/year, when our 6 local comprehensives between can't get 5 in a year, I believe they haven't got 5 into Oxford in the same 8 years, using Oxfords own pages, as OP DD's school which managed 40 kids! Because that girl who mentioned earlier in my DS1 year got A* and A's from a failing comprehensive, not an A and 2 B's, FGS.
No doubt all on here and Oxford will again blame the schools and parents like my friends and I for permitting the "not for the likes of us" myths. But may be looking in the mirror might help, but I suppose if you keep going back to successful schools, you can keep the headline stat of more than 50% of our students are state educated!
I notice No one ever says but less then 9% are poor, apart to be far David Lammy MP, who is then slated on here and the media, for upsetting the cosy world of Oxbridge.

Food for thought, surely

Clavinova · 15/11/2018 10:46

"I mean someone who got an A and two B's from a crap comprehensive in Hull is capable of being as clever, if not cleverer, than someone with 3 A's from Westminster"*

It's not as simple as that though - I know 2 students with 4 A*s each (from two different independent schools) who weren't offered places at Oxford this year.

A friend and her dd attended an Oxbridge information evening at her private school recently - they were told; "Everyone gets A*s these days."

Clavinova · 15/11/2018 10:47

someone with 3 A*'s from Westminster