Is Oxford only for rich families?

[Foslady]

My dd is taking GCSe’s Next year and her school are having various universities in to talk to the pupils. When the Oxford representatives came they mentioned that due to circumstances for one of the colleges there was a very generous bursary you can apply for. This particular college has the course that dd wants to study and now she’s thinking ‘why not?’. I want to support her in all her choices, academically she is quite gifted, and yes, there is a huge time period before university application, but I don’t know if we are the ‘right’ kind of people for Oxford. Up until recently I was a lone parent on a low wage. I now am with my partner but money is still tight (and to be honest if she was awarded the bursary it would be amazing , a massive help). I don’t want to ruin her dreams but at the same time, in reality, are they feasible or am I just kidding myself?

@Foslady
For the second on this thread I will wish good luck to your daughter. I hope she succeeds in everything she does. She is an amazing child and hope she gets to Lincoln college or pooled. Good on her.
You are rightly proud.
I havent complained about her or her school, I plainly questioned why Oxford with limited resources targeted a grammar with a creditable success rate
I am so sorry it was not personnal.
I hope you take my apology in good faith.

Foslady, my boys arent in any Oxford race.
Ds1 is at Lincoln, as your county capital city. Ds 2 on a good day might get GCSE 5's in July.
I only got GCSE's in English and Maths in 2016, same time as same DS1 paid through employers apprenticeship levy.

But I have been a governor a local primary school, and gain 1000 of pounds EU funding to save teaching posts. Give week up days and weekends to coach rugby for free.
Set up free sports teams at local schools.
On a committee which raised sports council funding to pay 2 local coaches to give all sports training free of charge to any local children in all local primary schools. We have provided park equipment for 6 villages to. Plus opened a new clubhouse and gym, which is free to use for one of the most deprived estates in Britain.
I have built free gardens and allotments for schools, community centres and homeless. Raise money for homeless. Wife and I read with deprived kids.
I.have mentored two ex care girls into fe, when they would have ended on the streets.
Helped to put local chartity in touch with our secondary school to pay for head of sixth form salary.
So no I am not a nasty northerner, I am pissed off one who hates the rich and prilvedge on here and Oxford blaming poor kids for failing.
Its so easy to dismiss people had uneducated and thick. Some of us still try and help people so much worse then us. Its not all but my kids. It called being a community. Something important to us thick norterners.
HTH

bowchicawowow
Bubbles has always delighted to tell me that child is borderline for going to university. She/he delights in tell anyone who cant make Oxbridge/Durham etc are wasting their time. They just explained why, they believe 95% of the population unworthy!
As for our school.
It was an LEA maintained school, it only in 2016 got more than 40% of good GCSE's. Only 16% of 2016 students went on to study A levels and complete them. Less left for university. 80% who went to the local one.

All year 9 spend 2 days at local university to encourage them. No visits to Oxbridge. All sixth form students field visits and course/curriculm visits are paid for.my a government HE access fund, we are deem so crap.
Career's nights 3 held, all university where arranged by local LEA. In 2016 we got
Hull
Hull and York medical school.
Bolton.
Huddersfield.
Tees
UC Scarborough
Northumbria
York St Johns.
No RG took up offers.

We became rated ofsted 4(1 point from special measures), acadamised in October, by local west of city MAT, with excellent and good schools in it.
5 head teacher we have known, sacked last day of last year. Letter home today, announcing all remaining SLT gone by Christmas, head of sixth gone immediately.

Their sixth forms run as a consortium, and regularly get Oxbridge entrants. Believe they are taking a couple of year 11 and 12's to Cambridge with one of other schools in MAT.
But why should it take a posh school to get Oxford to notice us. The 5 local schools not included due to being LEA or different MAT.

Finally my DC had less than £21500 spent on years 7 to 11. Ds1 got less than £6500 on years 12 and 13.
Thats what a year of spending at Westminister and a term for its sixth form.
But our kids need to be better then a Westminister, Eton , St Pauls boys or girls school etc, to stand a chance.
They have no chance.
Year 10 we had 12 different English teachers. Year 12 4 different geography teachers and year 13 45% of geography lessons cancelled. The library consists of 9 rows of book shelves, 2 shelves either side. 35% fiction books.
How in gods name do kids at our school, even with A* AA at A levels every compete.
But its their fault

Brilliant post 2BoysandaCairn.

Cambridge actively ask for that type of information - numbers of teachers and so on- on their post application questionnaire though.

And the internet means that any child interested in their subject can research it, take online courses, look at museum exhibits online. There's a lot an applicant can do, if they are motivated.

2Boys the sums spent on your DC are almost identical to the sums spent on my own DC, although mine are/ were at one of your much hated grammars. Not a single extra penny over and above the amount available to your DC.

The short answer about why grammars get Oxford and Cambridge events is because the grammars are used as a hub. Each year any interested students from our own grammar trek 60 miles to a different grammar which is used as a regional hub. All schools are welcome - their Ho6 just needs to be sufficiently pro-active to bring his interested students along. There's no way on earth Oxford and Cambridge can make visits to each and every state school in a region - how on earth much time and money would that cost? Hubs make sense.

If you don't mind my saying it's seriously poor of your Ho6 not to take a coach of kids down to the late June/ early July Oxford Open Days where accommodation and meals would be free. I mean - come on! Do something except moan if you're a Ho6!

What a very ugly narrow comment about rich people.

After all, some rich people were poor people - some were even poor Northern people - a generation ago.

How in gods name do kids at our school, even with A AA at A levels every compete*

One suggestion I do have is that more pupils should be encouraged to study 'facilitating' subjects at A Level; St Paul's, Eton and Westminster do not offer A Level Law or A Level Criminology. Even some of the better schools in your local authority have a very low percentage of students achieving AAB in at least 2 facilitating subjects.

Well OP as other have said - the short answer to your title question is "no"

Ds's circle of friends at Oxford came from a very wide range of schools and 6th form colleges ( I am even boring myself by how often I have posted this ) - No -one cared. I am sure there are some students who do - but you will get that anywhere. Oxford has enough students that you can avoid those not congenial to you

Again , to echo others , the living expenses in Oxford are very often cheaper than elsewhere ( i.e. other universities ) - partly short terms ( and yes quid pro quo you have the buggeration of moving everything out and back in again every term , partly money the colleges have to generally subsidise , partly specific subsidies.

The main thing is to understand the selection process and yes those able to e.g. to read around for the aptitude tests / interviews etc and have access to e.g. past papers to give them an idea of what those involve will find it easier. But no tutoring ( IMHO - and indeed my son's school specifically recommended not engaging any tutor who claimed to be good at "getting an Oxford place" ) . Having the time and the resources to look at the entrance procedure for the course you want to do and anything about any aptitude test ( all very very available on the websites ) is helpful. Lots of books are available 2nd hand on Amazon very very cheaply. If a student has an interest - then if they do what they can to explore that - well I suspect that it what is being looked for .

Basilisk ( Not an Oxford Tutor)

Oh and just one more point - to echo goodbye - have a shot at Oxford - don't set your heart on it - it is very competitive ( as are many many other universities ) - so no shame in trying but not getting a place. & yes make sure some core ( facilitating) subjects at A level . Ds had 2 and his 3rd wasn't but it was a decent argument based A level - which was fine for what he was applying for.

Late to the thread but I went to Oxford from a pretty rubbish state school and absolutely loved it. Definitely give it a shot!

2Boys I totally get your frustration at the situation that your children have faced, and yes, they have been let down when you consider how many teaching staff and the head they have gone through, lessons cancelled and lack of support in all areas.
I think that is the major difference - the staff at dd’s School are absolutely dedicated to both the school and it’s pupils with a very low staff turnover in all the time dd has been there. It sounds like the staff at your sons school felt like they were loosing the battle.
Funding at dd’s School hit crisis point last year to the point that the Headmaster ended up in local TV to publicly state how little the school got from the LEA - one of the lowest funded in the country and at one point it looked like we would have to pay for a set of text books for our children as the school had no spare money for the new curriculum, and it was the generosity of a parent who was in a position to anonymously help and the local Lions club that covered the cost.
When you have put in as much as you have to help the next generation whilst your own are being let down I would be angry too.
As a lone parent who has a low paid admin job I too have been looked down on by people who have no idea of my actual capabilities and in doing so have the impression ‘like mother like daughter’ - maybe that’s why i’m So damned determined she’s going to have as many chances as she can to have a different life to me.
No apology needed - I totally get where you are coming from.

BubblesBuddy Thu 15-Nov-18 14:50:22
The reason some areas don’t get DC to Oxbridge is either that they just are not bright enough (intelligence isn’t spread out evenly geographically), go to failing schools or that they don’t apply.

BubblesBuddy has really surpassed herself on this thread.

Prove that I’m wrong then! Sadly, I’m not.

2boys has described exactly that situation regarding some schools. My BIL teaches in one. Of course all areas of the uk are not the same regarding the spread of intelligence. That’s obvious. Do you seriously think highly educated parents are not more likely to have bright children? Some areas have few of these parents. Some have many more. That’s a fact and it makes a huge difference to Oxbridge applications. Prove to me that that is an incorrect analysis. Everything you care to read about Oxbridge Admissions say that some young people won’t apply when they should. Prove to me that that is incorrect. It’s not.

I don't know all the statistics about who gets in etc etc but just to offer encouragement to those looking at applying:
Our son was the first in our family to go to uni, let alone Oxford, in fact I didn't get past O levels and my hubby got a couple of CsEs. We are Northerners brought up on rough council estates, we have broad Northern accents, a tiny cheap house in a rough town and sod all money.
Our son went to the usual state schools. But we did do a lot of research about what would help him to get into Oxford, I did my best to help him put together his statement thingy {sorry can't remember what it was called) but we were advised not to use tutors and couldn't have afforded it anyway.
A lot rested on the tests they did when he went for his visit and apparently that went very well.
As for fitting in, he had one mate who used to travel to Oxford via helicopter and another whose parent's owned an 'estate' - by which apparently they didn't mean a big car...
They were totally bemused by our lifestyle, and particularly by the price of things like a haircut at the local barbers up North lol. But they were lovely. My son just accepted them all as they were regardless of their 'class or worth' and they seemed to reciprocate.

hdh that’s such an encouraging story! Your son sounds wonderful (and so do you).

Everything you care to read about Oxbridge Admissions say that some young people won’t apply when they should.

That’s not the fault of the young people. They lack the confidence. Why? Because of how Oxbridge is presented in the media, because of how social status is reinforced in the uk. It’s frustrating, but it’s a much wider issue than just ‘students not applying for silly reasons’. The reasons don’t seem silly to them - they’re valid concerns given the social situation in the country.

It also often doesn’t interest some of them as a lifestyle because it’s so far removed from normal life. Our family friend did a term at Oxford two years ago before she dropped out - she loved her course, but hated the culture and met a lot of over confident, arrogant people who knew just how smart they were. And she came away saying that the main thing she learnt was that the privileged love nothing more than to ignore and deny that privilege and pretend it doesn’t exist.

She’s now in her second year at one of the normal Durham colleges (huge, option to self cater, don’t use gowns, don’t have many formals), which she has found a much better fit for her. Oxbridge isn’t for everyone, for all sorts of reasons, all equally valid.

BubbleBuddy I can prove that you are talking rubbish. Please read the first link I posted. That article discusses statistics which completely disprove your offensive comments.

Sorry this has kicked off Foslady. It always does on MN when you mention a Grammar.) Lots of threads about London Indie schools or boarding schools go unscathed however).

Please don't let it put your DD off applying. Lots of normal people there!!

PancakeMum if those were the real reasons for the family friend dropping out then Durham wasn't a very obvious alternative, suffering as it does from the same reputation. I'm genuinely surprised that if she found that atmosphere at one she didn't find it at another. Perhaps her real reasons were different.

whiteroseredrose I don't think that comment of yours was addressed to me but in fact 2BoysandaCairn seems to lay a great deal of blame at the door of inadequate funding, so it's worth underlining the fact that no grammar - and very, very definitely not our grammar - gets more funding than the school he's describing. That means the grammars can't pay over the odds for better teachers - there's no extra in the pot for that. Independents can, grammars can't. The school in question sounds as though it's suffering from appalling leadership and from a really slack, hand-wringing Ho6 who points the finger of lack of success at everyone except himself. Frankly both sound useless. Then parents repeat the Ho6's self-serving drizzle and it becomes a truth, widely acknowledged and repeated on MN. That's not to underestimate social issues in the area which are profound but before damning all the forces at Oxbridge and among the rich which move against these bright young kids getting places and moving on, perhaps 2BoysandaCairn should look at what sound like very obvious pools of weakness nearer to home.

Will Hutton’s artiicle in The Guardian picks out a couple of schools in northern areas. It dies not give overall evidence as to why some areas have very low achieving schools. It is also likely that bright children congregate in one school which leaves the others facing low attainment and with few bright children. This article isn’t proof of anything. It’s a journalist with his own view using very selective information to prove it. As you would expect! That is not the same as statistics. You need to supply statistics to prove I am wrong Bowchi! It’s not offensive to say or think that former industrial areas where higher numbers of people have not accessed higher education have DCs who are not as bright as the stockbroker belt in Surrey! It is fact!

You are wrong Bubble and you know it. Look at the article David Lanmy wrote. The evidence shows that kids in poor areas if given the same opportunities as their rich counterparts would do as well and in a lot of cases are doing better. The problem with Oxbridge is that historically they have selected candidates who are a reflection of themselves. It is wrong and offensive and discriminatory to suggest that children in poor areas are not academically as good as rich children.

I too am surprised by the Durham experience. My nephew, in his second year, has found that the reputation that Durham has for being exactly the same is true and he's had a tough time. I've never posted that as its anecdotal, but real.

My daughter is having a go at applying for Oxford. We are Northern, A Levels for me, O Levels for DH. My family are from a deprived NE area, DH's father was a miner initially, before using education to change his circumstances. School haven't been massively helpful, especially last year in Y12, but somewhat improved this term.

I can't feel angered or aggrieved really other than with the school initially, but then they don't get many to Oxbridge so probably lack experience themselves. The situation is what it is but I would like to think that Oxford will look for a certain skill set and attributes that would be universal for all.

I'm probably naive but that's my view.

I would like to know:
Is there any difference between the ratio of state school students admitted to courses which have a pre-test and those that don’t!
Ditto for Interview.

Is there actual evidence that the A* students who make it to Oxbridge are actually brighter / more academically successful than the rejected ones with the same grades who end up in other good Universities?

Especially given the very different ethnic make up of top Universities like Imperial for sciences, for example.

Of course in theory any bright, hard working young person can earn their place. But there are so many factors that subtlety tip the playing field.

Does your school prepare you for the pre-test? Tne ‘how to think’ test which will be different from any other curriculum based approach in state schools?

Does your school do intensive interview practice? This is almost embedded throughout many private schools.

When you visit on Open Day do you see ANY member of staff who is not white?
Are you shown round or do you meet or see any non white undergraduate?
(Clue; in the case of my not-white child: No)
As you are shown round the chapel and told of the various termly ceremonies that happen there, using much jargon and Latin, is there any thought around the fact that the very multi cultural group you are showing round might not all be Christian (whether religiously or culturally)
(Apparently not)

My Dc has applied, but the culture shock compared to a thoroughly diverse and inclusive London comp is quite strong, and it was clear that the demography looking round on Open Days isn’t reflected in the intake that actually get places.

Whereas at Imperial they do.

Just talking about context: OP I wish your Dd the best of luck. It is a great education.

The context from a grammar school perspective - although the London grammars in particular may be different - is that of my six DC who needed to do aptitude tests (LNAT, BMAT and the HAT), not one of them was offered any guidance whatsoever on the tests (there were no teachers at school with any experience of them apart from anything else). It was fine. They used the Oxford website advice for the HAT, a book recommended at the (free) Oxford Open Day for the BMAT and an inexpensive standard book for the LNAT too. I don't know the score for the first HAT which was taken, DD2 never found out (though got a place), but the other five scored extremely highly, right up at the very top end (LNAT and BMAT scores are given automatically by Pearson, the two other HAT DC e-mailed to find out). Preparation may not be helpful - the tests are designed not to require help, that's kind of the point.

Do you seriously think highly educated parents are not more likely to have bright children
It’s not offensive to say or think that former industrial areas where higher numbers of people have not accessed higher education have DCs who are not as bright as the stockbroker belt in Surrey! It is fact!

Oh dear Bubbles you seem to be getting mixed up between Education and Intelligence