The best course/University for a Maths degree.

[Mel2Mel]

My DS will be starting his As levels next year. He is a capable mathematician and highly motivated.
I would really appreciate your advice on the best University for him to study Maths and what are the differences between the courses from one University to another.
Thank you very much in advance

Eastpoint Sorry I didn't understandOne of my very mathematical friends (PhD level) said that people tend to reach their limit with maths at some point and that's why people stop. People stop studying Maths? ...

I think Eastpoint means that people quite frequently switch out of maths at undergraduate level, or decide against carrying on for a masters or PhD. Those studying for maths PhDs also often feel they have bitten off more than they chew and they graduate with an MPhil (instead of PhD) or finish their PhD but quit academia.

Thank you spinoa much appreciated

What surprises most is when some manage to get a first from Cambridge to become private tutors. I've had this conversation with my DH this morning and to go through all that hurdle just to become a tutor

That is definitely not a usual career path, though. I can't think of a single student with a first from Cambridge who became a tutor. I do however know several who obtained PhDs from Cambridge, but were not strong enough in research to get faculty positions, who teach as College lecturers because they enjoy their subjects and want to stay in Cambridge.

In any case I guess people should do what they enjoy doing. I know of somebody with a Cambridge maths degree who became a stone mason and is happy doing this. Many mathematicians stay in academia and earn a tiny fraction of what they could earn in the financial sector, but they are happy doing research. So if somebody is happy being a private tutor....

I totally agree with you on the enjoyment factor. My advice to my DC is always to go for what makes them happy and are keen to do it even for free.

Tutoring is not a usual career path and that made me wonder....I hope they are doing it out of enjoyment

Getting a First from Cambridge doesn't give immunity from mental health issues, addictions, relationship breakdowns etc. Indeed a number of students develop such issues in coming to terms with the fact that they are no longer the smartest, and they can't carry on into academia as they had hoped. Some students are very bright but have very poor social and interaction skills, so their job prospects are correspondingly rather limited. Quite a few students feel burnt out after years of studying and exams, and need a break from pressure before starting on graduate careers.

All of the above are reasons why somebody might end up in a low pressure job such as tutoring, although as I said above I don't personally know of any graduate who is working as a tutor.

I have seen few advertising but who knows...

I can see tutoring becoming a more popular career choice. There is huge demand, especially in maths, from overseas studings wanting to take A levels in England as preparation for applications to English Universities,. often Cambridge and Imperial.

Unllike teaching, hours can be flexible (one such student we know said some of his teachers seemed to spend three days a week on the golf course), you are not expected to get involved in school management or extra curricular, class sizes are small, indeed often one-to-one, and at many colleges most students will be motivated and hard working. Plus lots of scope to earn extra money during the vacations. As well as revision courses, it is not unknown for bright overseas students at top British boarding schools to then spend their vacations at tutorial colleges, in the same way that they would in their home countires. One boy we know only ever had Christmas day off.

Plus you are then free to spend the summer on a yacht in the Med tutoring some child for Eton pre-test or Ivy League maths entry requirements.

I've posted this before. Despite the sensational journalism I don't think it is that wide of the mark:

www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/schools-not-out-for-summer-londons-superrich-are-flying-private-tutors-out-to-their-yachts-to-get-their-children-in-to-top-schools-9611409.html

Sixth form education for overseas students is becoming really big business. State schools, like the onces TalkinPeace and Secret Squirrel's children attend, have branched out into taking private oveerseas students, English private schools have expanded their sixth forms, specialist sixth form colleges in places like Shropshire and Cardiff have sprung up,, whist the number of places at private tutorial colleges has expanded significantly. In part because of language, maths is a really popular subject. The question must be whether the demand for good maths teachers in these institutions and their ability to offer better terms and conditions, will add to the recruitment problems British schools already face.

We have lived in many countries due to my DH job and from what I have witnessed the preparation for Maths is far superior abroad(in the countries we were in) than in the UK school system!

Superior is however a rather subjective concept.

For example, the Singapore system relies on students studying many hours; doing so many practice questions that they have seen all possible questions before taking exams; prep for Olympiads starting at the end of primary school. Many Singapore students get top grades at 18 and yet very few Singapore students go on to be top mathematicians. Becoming a top mathematician is about creativity, originality, problem solving and independent thinking which the Singapore system doesn't really encourage. Meanwhile the UK school system, with its rather low expectations of top students, continually produces a large number of world leading mathematicians, perhaps because creativity and independent thinking is highly valued in the UK.

Really Mel? Better than top British private schools and expensive tutorial colleges, which is where bright and rich overseas students tend to head for? If this is the case I wonder why English schools have had so much success at attracting sixth formers, not only from Asia, but also countires like Nigeria and Russia, and have also been able to establish satellite colleges overseas.

Which country? Why then would you encourage your child to come to the UK for tertiary education?

My own impression, based on the progress of my son's peers, is that some children can appear advanced because they are very drilled, but it all sorts itself out between the A2 FP2 paper and first year University, when bright students willing to put in the work surge ahead. And that at this point British students who have had competent teaching are not at an obvious disadvantage.

Well I wasn't thinking of Singapore and I haven't had much contact to be able to judge.
My point is not everyone is invading our School System because of our superior Maths education or our tutors. The tutors in the article are either actors or language tutors who happened to teach 11+ Maths.
My DS sailed through 11+ Maths in year 2 without any help or practice.

Why go far to fetch examples Nowadays many academic staff in maths are international - in some departments international staff are in the majority and Research in mathematics is extremely competitive at every stage. Getting a PhD position in a top group requires extremely strong undergraduate performance and most PhD students will not be able to stay in academia even if they want to, not even those graduating from top research groups at top institutions. are your comments after all!

Mel, that article was only one element. Google Tutorial colleges and A level maths. You will be astonished at how many there are, and how they are growing. Look at the Student Room thread about Westminster sixth form entry and note the number of students from all over the world seeking a place there, Sevenoaks, Dulwich College or wherever. Look at the prospectus for Cardiff or Shrewsbury sixth form college. Looks at plans for good state sixth forms like Peter Symonds to start taking fee paying students from overseas. Similarly loads of Public school outposts like the Harrow School in Bangkok, whose graduates then head overwhelmingly to UK Universities.

For various reasons DCs cousins grew up overseas and we heard a lot (too much!) about how much better schools systems were in places like Hong Kong and Italy. There was an assumption that these children would then waltz into Oxbridge, because they were bright and so well schooled. This has not happened though they have gone to perfectly good Universities. But then our English educated DS did not get a place at Cambridge but has also gone to a perfectly good University.

I think the English system is different to many other systems, both in Europe and elsewhere. But as spinoa suggests it is hard to be sure other systems are superior. Certainly my dyslexic DD is almost certainly better off in Britain, where she has been able to drop English and humanities at 16, and focus on the subjects she has a flair for, whilst I think my son has gained from the more questioning approach used in the UK.

Needmoresleep, If you haven't noticed, I was talking about Maths.

I am aware that the British system is well regarded for special needs. I have met parents from Russia and Hungary who have chosen to move ever here because they have DC with autism and are very grateful for all the pampering they are getting.
I have met S.Korean parents who are living separate family lives (mothers here but the fathers back home) just to get their DC out of their pressure cooker education system and of course get them to Harrow....some ex prime minister or some... went to Harrow....I am not sure but it is due to some cultural nonsense rather than the UK Education brilliance.

What you are referring to is fashion not quality of education.

There are a lot of different questions being tackled. The UK has actively promulgated the English language globally for many decades through the British Council and private TEFL schools. Independent schools and universities also have sought to increase their income by outposts and distance learning, on the back of English as a global language. Research is often accessed through English. All of this makes the UK higher up the list for students seeking options outside their home countries, where there are fewer universities, and competition is much much worse. As a result, we have one industry that is thriving in the UK...

The other thing is that the 'best' public schools and tutorial colleges aren't necessarily the best places to learn maths. It's a subject where performance depends overwhelmingly on the learner, and not the teacher. A local comp regularly 'produces' a Maths tripos or Oxford Maths a year. One year they produced 3, and two of them decided to go to Warwick and Imperial instead. Even public schools that send half their leavers to Oxbridge, may send none in Maths. If the talent is not there, no amount of school-level teaching will deliver. Even basically adequate teaching will deliver, if the interest and ability are there. As long as DC are comfortable learning, they will get what they want.

DC have said that in their view the main differences between COWI is what you're used to or prefer. Some people choose the Oxbridge for the small tutorials, some don't really see themselves spending four years in a small place with small tutorials, like boarding school. London living can be a put-off or a magnet. Imperial doesn't do small tutorials; if you can't do without your tutor coaching you along, it'll be uncomfortable there, at least to begin with.

Saying that other school education systems are not superior for maths does not contradict in any way the statement that mathematics is international and many academics in the UK are not British. No school system (barring perhaps pre-1990s Russia) gives a particular advantage in university maths. Systems which are very rigid like Singapore give a slight disadvantage; systems like the UK one which encourage creative thinking may give a slight advantage. It is not true to say that one can look at incoming students and say that they will be better prepared just because they come from country x rather than country y or school type z rather than school type w.

I agree with the previous poster that maths performance depends a lot on the learner and their intrinsic abilities.

BTW British educated mathematicians are very successful internationally - not only are the UK maths departments international, so are most maths departments elsewhere in the world too, and British educated mathematicians take more than their share of top positions.

maryso I think your DC are right. My DS seems to prefer Cambridge to Oxford for one simple reason, Cambridge is smaller and cozier. After visiting Cambridge, he seems to be exited about the potential to be living off a staircase full of mathmos

He's read somewhere that Imperial could be full of Internationals and how it is boring because they are too studious...(He saw them working in the late hours while on our way to Royal Albert Hall), however it is the only reason he is willing to consider London.

I am not sure people are queueing up to try for sixth form places at places like Westminster because of either fashion or because British schools are good at special needs.

I made clear earlier on that many of the international sixth formers choose to take maths/science/economics. Presumably because, for language reasons or otherwise, these subjects are more comfortable. Many are aiming for top UK and International Universities, and indeed several of my son's international peers gained places at Cambridge, MIT and Harvard to study or major in subjects like maths, engineering and economics. I assume one attraction is the quality of our education system, which as spinoa suggests may not be as structured as other European countries, or as full-on as some Asian ones, but encourages of creativity and independent thinking and seems to produce the goods.

As it happens my dyslexic DD is perfectly bright. My point was that the UK system has allowed her to thrive by allowing her to focus on strengths, and providing support for her weaknesses. Oddly, having struggled with learning times tables and having always lost far too many marks through inaccuracy, she is starting to fly at maths A level, to the extent she is overtaking some of the kids who always used to come top, with the added advantage that she appears to be quite creative in her approach. Its now looking as if she could have been a credible candidate for a top maths course, had she decided to take double rather than single maths.

It depends on how you describe quality of education. It is pretty certain that DD has done better in the British system than she might have done in a more structured system. However I would argue that the fact that British education appears to be in such high demand internationally suggests something about it is good.

Westminster is the exception not the rule of the British Education system!!!

The Russian and Hungarian DC with autism, I have referred to previously, are bright as well btw the British system is highly structured in my opinion.

I think maryso has summed up quite well the reason why the British system is in demand or shall we say anything in English....The IB system is highly in demand globally, the American system is highly in demand...International Schools are highly in demand. Far Eastern have been filling up the Schools in Canada, the states and Australia away more than the UK.

One lawyer from Nigeria explained to me that she's chosen to send her DS to board in the UK for safety reasons and to have the British accent!

Surely not that simple. One generalisation I think it is reasonable to make is that international sixth formers work hard and international parents expect good results and entry to good Universities. Which is why Imperial students are sometimes perceived as over hard working and dull. (Though actually the several students we know there are a pretty cosmopolitan mix and really enjoying themselves.)

Oddly Westminster may not be that much of an exception. At least in terms of results. I think Cardiff ' s are almost as good. And some of the tutorial colleges do very well as well. Though obviously you don't get Latin prayers or SHAG days. I also tend to agree with spinoa. Westminster is likely to have good hit rate for top maths courses because it is selective including a big intake for sixth form, so should pick up some natural mathematicians along the way. However however good the teaching, and it is good, they can't create maths talent when it is not there to start with.

The initial point though was that there is lots of demand for good maths graduates to become tutors to the extent that it might be a viable and flexible career.

First, I would like to see the outcome of the Westminster type of schooling on the average poor DC. Most of them were tutored and are still tutored!!!

Second, I am confused Does the education system influence mathematicians or not??!! If there is no link and all is based on creativity and inner ability then what is the point of all this conversation...we could all lock our DC with text books. Well at least we have established that foreigners are not flocking over here for the ''make or break'' quality of the mathematical teaching.

Some time schooling hinders as well! When we were abroad, like in Canada, my DS was encouraged to work at his pace and wasn't held back while back in the UK he had to spend most of his primary and early secondary being a teacher's helper and hardly learning anything new. In addition, most of this year he has been doing past papers even though scoring 100s!!! You call this creativity??

The school education system in any country doesn't cover any maths that bright students can't teach themselves with the aid of a textbook. At university level the course content varies considerably between universities and teaching/interacting with academics plays an important role. However, at undergraduate level the very brightest can still often teach themselves with a little bit of guidance. A small number of people enter academia from very weak undergraduate institutions, institutions which are isolated geographically or otherwise, having managed to teach themselves from books and internet resources. Of course, most students, even bright ones, need more guidance and wouldn't be able to teach themselves at university level.

Subject acceleration - its advantages and disadvantages - is yet another debate, one that you might like to have with maths academics during open days. Some posters on these boards have deliberately chosen selective schools which provide a broader, deeper education encouraging independent thinking (without subject acceleration) while there are others who felt that their children needed to work at their own pace outside a school environment with subject acceleration. If you like subject acceleration and grade skips then indeed North America is more open to these options.

Sorry to crash the thread, but thought the topic brought up is very interesting. Me and DH are Hong kongers but gained our degrees in the UK in the 90's we got brilliant city jobs in Hong Kong from the back of our uk degrees, Hong Kong being still under British rule in the early 90's being able to speak and write english was a bonus (back then HK only had i think 4 universities. So having a degree was quite rare in those days) useful in the financial hub of HK with majority of western banks and companies. Our dd was raised in HK but is now at university in the UK. Why did we choose UK and not HK.
There are only 13 universities in HK , 7 government controlled and very well respected world wide, and 5 that are privately owned the latter mainly offering vocational degrees and require a extra year added to the degree in order for the government to feel they offer the same rigour as the 7 they control. The 7 uni are extremely popular and equally competitive to get into. There is frankly not enough universities in hk for the demand. Hence we have to go abroad.
For professional and well paid jobs here in HK they expect a degree. Where you obtain your degree is very important for some of the city jobs. More so than here in UK by judging, reading the post on here, employers are picky.
UK is attractive as you have many good universities that are well known here and also British colonial connection, many Hong kongers still hold high regards to the British education system. So feel confident sending our kids here its worth the money (international fees).
Your right about the rote learning in South East Asia the pressure is immense for students to do well and get a job. We don't have a welfare system or health care (NHS) The prices of property is eye wateringly expensive 1 bedroom 200sq yard in the most grimiest areas would set you back £250k. This only means our kids have to try and get good paid jobs in order to get up the property ladder. Education seems the only hope for our kids.

My DS has never skipped a year/grade and actually I have avoided any form of acceleration. However he was never discouraged or made to practice paper after paper as the teachers tend to do here. Extension work was available for him in his year group.

However in the UK, he was made to wait and most of the time help the other children in the class. When he was in year 8, his Maths teacher told me "I don't know what I could have done without your son's help'' this is in the fast track!! I didn't mind him helping his teachers teaching his peer group, but every single day and for few years??

He is at the top in all his other subjects and reading around all of them. He is doing a lot of sports as well and plenty of other things in parallel. He has definitely been distracted from his love for Maths!

However, the maths academics were very clear during the open day....they don't care about anything else but MATHS. The message was very clear, one has to allow for his Maths brain to develop!!! They don't want them to join Cambridge young for their emotional well being but they certainly want them to do more maths.