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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

The best course/University for a Maths degree.

302 replies

Mel2Mel · 21/04/2015 19:41

My DS will be starting his As levels next year. He is a capable mathematician and highly motivated.
I would really appreciate your advice on the best University for him to study Maths and what are the differences between the courses from one University to another.
Thank you very much in advance Smile

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Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 08:22

spinoa keep looking and you'll find....
It is easy not to find something when you are rejecting it in the first place.

MagratGarlik ...however you are far from being in your 20's. In your case it's an after thought more than a first choice. It sounds more like an escape from facing Ofsted and perhaps the DC (without parental support, without books, who really need your ''devotion'') who can't offered it than a decision you took on graduation day.

Personally, I don't see how someone could convince parents into tutoring Maths to their DC in now days, with all the resources available online. There are many dedicated teachers who have uploaded (for free) extensive material online and the rest is practice and a bit of struggle to develop that part of the brain Smile

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MagratGarlik · 01/05/2015 08:55

Mel, don't try amateur psychology to tell me why I did or didn't get into my chosen career, you are so far off the mark (and I'm an ex-academic, Ofsted has nothing to do with Universities BTW).

The parents of many of my students are themselves maths and science graduates, medics etc and there are so many different reasons why students prefer to work with a human being than a computer program online. If I were you, I wouldn't be so sneery about it just yet, your ds hasn't finished yr 11 yet and is therefore a long way from finishing his academic studies, who knows at which point he may or may not need or simply want a little extra help and support? (And university academics won't provide support at anything like the same level or intensity that school teachers do).

As stated previously, I assume you look on young teachers with good degrees who chose teaching as a first career choice with the same level of distain?

alreadytaken · 01/05/2015 09:01

not all students are well motivated and for those that aren't a tutor near to their own age is very helpful.

It sounds as if you have made up your mind where to send your child, if you are genuine. However it seems more likely that you are a student winding up parents.

On the off chance that you are genuine then Cambridge produces more great mathematicians than any other British university and since Trinity prides itself on its mathematicians many will apply there. If your child gets in they will be with some extremely able young mathematicians. Whether Trinity is a good choice is rather more debatable as some colleges seem to exert more pressure on students than others. Mathematicians who dont achieve a 2.1 in their first year may be under pressure to move into computer studies.

There is a big step up from school maths to university maths at any university and at Cambridge the added pressure of short terms. If your child is not of gold Olympiad standard think twice before encouraging them to apply www.ukmt.org.uk/individual-competitions/british-mathematical-olympiad/

If you want your mathematically able child to walk into a well paid job on graduating (and have a well paid internship in holidays) encourage them towards engineering and perhaps to Imperial.

Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 10:30

MagratGarlik I get all the pluses of teaching without Ofsted and all the other shit These are your words not mine!!! You don't have to justify to me why you have chosen private tuition over academia I'm an ex-academic your words again not mine again
.

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SecretSquirrels · 01/05/2015 10:38

The OP's opening post seemed to be a genuine question from a parent embarking on the unknown territory of higher education.
Subsequent posts suggest that was somewhat disingenuous.

Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 10:55

alreadytaken Thank you for answering my original post instead of looking for an argument Flowers

It sounds as if you have made up your mind where to send your child no not at all. He has a mind of his own and there is no way I could force him even if I want to. He has expressed no interest in engineering but he will be visiting Imperial for Maths.

If your child gets in they will be with some extremely able young mathematicians From what I can gather, he is very keen to be in this type of environment.

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Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 11:03

The OP's opening post seemed to be a genuine question from a parent embarking on the unknown territory of higher education.
Subsequent posts suggest that was somewhat disingenuous
You are right about the first part.

Subsequent posts should have suggested that somewhat 'really fed up' of some of the posts. I don't mean all...some I have found funny, some were really informative and I thank the posters for all the information they have offered but some I wonder what's their aim!!

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Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 11:05

The OP's opening post seemed to be a genuine question from a parent embarking on the unknown territory of higher education. Subsequent posts suggest that was somewhat disingenuous You are right SecretSquirrels about the first part.

Subsequent posts should have suggested that somewhat 'really fed up' of some of the posts. I don't mean all...some I have found funny, some were really informative and I thank the posters for all the information they have offered but some I wonder what's their aim!!

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Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 11:25

However it seems more likely that you are a student winding up parents How? The posters I have been talking to are not on this thread representing parents, they are representing Private Tuition/business.

I wouldn't be so sneery about it just yet, your ds hasn't finished yr 11 yet and is therefore a long way from finishing his academic studies

At the moment he is challenging himself by searching the web and he pushes himself to the point he struggles yet the last thing he wants is somebody giving him the answer.
Not long ago he struggled for a couple of days with a question which is away above his academic year but refused to ask anyone for help until he got it. He gave it to his (Chinese and I have mentioned his origins because of some of the previous posts) friend 2 days ago and he is still working on it and refusing to ask for the answer as well. I don't see how a tutor could be beneficial to my DS or his friend and more importantly how will he charge me?!

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MagratGarlik · 01/05/2015 12:34

The reference to Ofsted was as a comparison for young graduates thinking about going into teaching that private tuition is a viable alternative career to teaching and why it can be preferable.

the last thing he wants is someone giving him the answer
Education (and tuition) is not about giving him the answer.

You've made it clear that you think careers in education (private and state sectors) are below the level of good graduates. I do hope you've not passed these attitudes on to your son who may be a gifted mathematician, or may not. It has yet to be seen because he does not yet have the educational accomplishments to back it up either way at the moment, but you are already looking down on others and as I stated originally, the attitude is snobbish at best.

Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 12:53

As I have already mentioned my DS has a mind of his own and there is no way I could force him even if I want to if at the end of his University education he decides to become a private tutor because of passion then he will have my full support and I would be happy to subsidise his costs in doing so ( such as car and petrol to cover 300 miles per week) Grin

Seriously, if he really wants to go for private tuition strait after university, I would beg him and support him to do it for free where it's really needed.

PS: You keep mixing up teachers with tutors but let me make it clear I am talking about the students who have just finished University and opted for private tuition.

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Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 13:04

JUST to make it clear I was puzzled not against.

Since this Thread branched out to Private Tuition, I have emails some of the Private Tutors and I have heard back from them. They are offering Private tuition while waiting to start a job somewhere or they haven't received an employment offer yet. They are using private tuition to keep busy rather than a career choice at this stage.

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MagratGarlik · 01/05/2015 13:21

Funnily enough, I don't need to have the costs of my journeys subsidized by my parents, it's not charity, after all Hmm.

I'm not mixing up teachers with tutors, I'm making a comparison between two related career choices that some graduates might make. You said you didn't understand why someone with a first from Cambridge in maths would go to all that trouble, just to be a tutor. I asked whether you would think the same about a young 20-something graduate in the same situation choosing teaching as a career. Many reasons for going into either teaching or tutoring are similar (desire to pass on knowledge, help others, talk about your favourite subject all day), but with tutoring there are additional pluses, which I've already mentioned and I'm not going to repeat, again.

You didn't respond to the question asked (despite asking several times), so I'm assuming the answer is yes, you would have the same thought regarding a choice of either career.

P.S. a student who has finished University is a contradiction in terms. Either s/he is a student (at University or elsewhere), or has finished studying and hence, it not a student.

Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 15:12

I don't need to have the costs of my journeys subsidized by my parents Hello! You are too old to rely on your parents but my DS will be 20/21 Hmm

it's not charity, after all I am sure because the young graduates work hard to pay for your lifestyle while you are on holidays answering emails and posting on threads!

You didn't respond to the question asked (despite asking several times), so I'm assuming the answer is yes, you would have the same thought regarding a choice of either career

Please don't assume, as far as I am concerned choosing to be a teacher or being a private tutor are 2 completely different career choices.

If you haven't read (I doubt you do) one of my previous posts where I have said There are many dedicated teachers who have uploaded (for free) extensive material online They have all my respect and I am more than happy to make donations to their sites Smile

My views on Private tuition as a career choice JUST after University are clear and I am not going to repeat myself either.

If you excuse me MagratGarlik, I would finish this conversation with you and
the only thing I would be interested in hearing from you is which university you have ever been involved with JUST to avoid for my DC. That is the aim of my original post after all!

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LizzieMizz · 01/05/2015 15:52

Its the case of why do you have such a lowly perception of the job of being a private tutor. I feel as though in your eyes its not classed as a profession just one you think people do in their spare time, earn extra cash. Yes there are those types of tutors, nothing wrong with that. But there are also people like us who do this full time. It is our profession. I have some students that I have tutored since they were 10years old and are now 17 looking forward to going to university, I deal with a range of intelligence from super bright to those diagnosed with mild learning or language difficulties from a early age ( not all states schools have adequate provisions for them). I use different styles and techniques, tailor suited in order for them to understand, reorganise their thinking, most of my pupils at GCSE/Alevel require exam/essay technique. I go to exam board conferences AQA, OCR, Edexcel etc to keep me update with any specification changes. My pupils sit with different exam boards for same subjects but each will require differing standards of interpretations to get them the grades. If a graduate wanted to do this as a full time profession and are prepared to put the hours of dedication into pedagogy, are competent in their subject area have good communication skills I can not see why this could not be a respectable profession.

FragileBrittleStar · 01/05/2015 16:09

Eastpoint i agree with your friend's point- peers reached a limit with maths (often quite suddenly) - where they didn't get it. Luckily the course where I was on gave flexibility both in terms of subjects or levels at whichg things can be studied. I would agree with other posters - school maths has to be a doddle before you should consider a degree in it.

In terms of uni - i agree with most posters in terms of status and also future value - cambridge is a sure thing. You may want to consider the type of maths offered/ability to specialise/amount of hours 1-1 offered etc but most people only ruled out cambridge on other grounds (type of university/town/entrance requirements)

UK employers are picky and can be increasingly so

Eastpoint · 01/05/2015 16:45

My friend felt that post PhD people reached their limit - I guess the less mathsy weren't really on her radar. Her view is that maths is like acting is for actors, a true mathematician would sacrifice anything for it and would not consider an alternative lifestyle/career.

summerends · 01/05/2015 16:50

I am sure that some of the savvy young maths graduates have made the calculation that tutoring is a growing service industry that has the potential to pay very well, indeed extremely well at the top end of the market (if newspaper reports are to be believed) particularly if said graduate has the Oxbridge brand.

As with every career direction it is a balance between the earning potential lifestyle balance (or lack of in some financial sector jobs) and, in some cases, a vocation.

MagratGarlik · 01/05/2015 17:20

Thank you LizzieMizz, my point exactly.

Mel, if you want to avoid universities I've been involved in (both studied at and held academic positions in), I'd suggest you give some of the better ones mentioned on here a miss then Smile.

Needmoresleep · 01/05/2015 17:50

One aspect of London's diversity is the diversity of parenting styles. I believe Word when she says her children have not been tutored, and I expect her to believe me when I say the same. (Though in fact dyslexic DD had some extra, very useful, help in English which went a long way to establishing some confidence.)

It would not surprise me if some Westminster children were tutored. Indeed me it would surprise me if some weren't. It would actually surprise me if there were a selective school in London, state or private, where some children weren't tutored. And there will be different reasons. Sometimes because children are stuggling, or absolutely need that B in Maths or English, sometimes because they were tutored to get in, and need tutoring to keep up. I remember one mother complaining that DDs school made it very difficult to compare your child's performance against that of classmates. She did not know which subjects to organise tutoring in. It turned out that she came from a system where class ranking mattered, and so she wanted her, very bright and lovely, child to be at the top of the class in all subjects, eventually graduating in first place. I think at that point her child was already being tutored in four subjects. Really not needed!

Tutoring teenagers without a specific purpose, however, can be a double aged sword. We have come across more than one teenage who relies on the tutor to do homework. Indeed, and this was a boy at a very famous school (not W), the tutor did the GCSE coursework. My children tell me they learn best by listening in class, which is a good learning habit. Some kids instead learn to rely on tutors instead to go through material, which must frustrate teachers.

OP sounds a couple of mothers I know, indeed I wonder if I might know her..... Its been strange. I know there is an element of this in MN but in the world of central London private schools, there seem to be ranks of hugely gifted children. DC never were. At times it has felt as if the parents have judged us on our ordinary public sector jobs and then their children have assumed the same attitude towards our children. (A bit tedious, and not dissimilar to the attitude towards career tutors which seems to exist here.)

What I have wondered though is what happens to these children. They are centre of attention. If something goes wrong, the school, school system, teacher, whoever, is blamed. (One mother even threatened to sue a sports coach for emotional damage to her child!) Some really are renassiance children with great music, sports and other extra curricular, on top of a very solid academic performance. But what happens after that. They may go to Cambridge. They may thrive there. But then what? I guess the assumption is they go on to the States for post-grad and then into a top law firm or somewhere like Goldman Sachs. But work demands other skills beyond academic success, and numbers, dictate that more than some will fall off their pedestals at some point on the journey. And even if they make it, should they ever pause to reflect, is this where they want to be. Do they have the wider skills to be a good spouse or a good parent. Do they have the hinterland, empathy and resiliance that they might need in the future.

I probably know/know of one too many banker wives who have discovered the nice house in Kensington is not worth sticking in the marriage that provides it!

This I admit is off-topic, and may not be relevent for OP and her DS. It also reflects other recent conversations. Not everyone is motivated by money or employment status. It is perfectly possible to be very very good at maths, or indeed anything else, and simply not be suited to working in organisations, including the political organisations that schools can be. DD did some career profiling which suggests she is very interested in caring for others (strange, she showed next to no interest in caring for her rabbit!) yet not interested in law, research or policy, business or anything artistic. That fine. Becoming a postman, if she wants to be a postman, is also fine.

My sense is that its worth finding the field that suits you, and then trying to identify roles within that field that match your skills. Then you have a good chance of both doing well and achieving job satisfaction. Maths and tutoring sound like a good fit for some, and the demand is there.

summerends · 01/05/2015 18:13

Actually (as an aside to needmoresleep's thoughtful contribution) from the small sample size of maths teachers I know there seem to be a high frequency of Cambridge mathematicians.
Perhaps because they are so enthusiastic for their subject?

Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 18:20

In terms of uni - i agree with most posters in terms of status and also future value - cambridge is a sure thing. You may want to consider the type of maths offered/ability to specialise/amount of hours 1-1 offered etc but most people only ruled out cambridge on other grounds (type of university/town/entrance requirements)

That is exactly what we have been encouraging my DS to consider while visiting Universities on Open Days.

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Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 18:51

LizzieMizz I don't know why you are adamant that I am specifically talking about your case? You haven't left University @ 21 and started a private tuition career, have you?

May I remind you that I have already mentioned the following:

''What I have NOT said is :

1- Private tuition is a bad thing.
2- Setting up a private tuition business is a bad thing.
3- Doing private tuition after a career in mainstream academia is a bad thing.
4- Doing private tuition alongside research is a bad thing.
5- Doing private tuition out of enjoyment is a bad thing.
6- Doing private tuition out of personal satisfaction is a bad thing.''

I taught for 15 years subsequently became a deputy head teacher, but now I tutor I am not ashamed of what I do
Please and please I am far from thinking that you should be ashamed of what you do because there is simply nothing to be ashamed of. From your last post I can see that you care about what you do so I truly wish you all the best.

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Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 19:01

Needmoresleep I really think you need more sleep Grin you have made far too many assumption and you are so wrong.

I wouldn't want my DS after years of following his dream of academia to stop at 20/21 and start tutoring to make money. I would rather he travels a bit to expand his horizons while working, volunteering,...

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Mel2Mel · 01/05/2015 19:27

summerends In my DC's school there are a couple of teachers from Cambridge and few from Oxford, quite normal really.

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