The best course/University for a Maths degree.

[Mel2Mel]

My DS will be starting his As levels next year. He is a capable mathematician and highly motivated.
I would really appreciate your advice on the best University for him to study Maths and what are the differences between the courses from one University to another.
Thank you very much in advance

Is that really the case, Spinoa? My friend's very bright daughter is doing FM in her own time (it's not offered at school) and usually getting 100% on her papers. She's a northern state-comp girl. I might prod her a bit into applying...

She should definitely be looking into the top courses, including Cambridge.

On the other hand, I can definitely understand why people prefer to apply to Oxford, do the MAT in the Autumn, and then get a decision with a reasonable offer based on A level grades in December, rather than risk having a very high offer with STEP grades from Cambridge, when the STEP results aren't known until August. But Cambridge do offer STEP courses for those from state schools which can't offer any preparation for STEP, and would tend to be more generous in their offers for a girl in such a situation.

anyone who is usually getting 100% on self taught further maths paper and who wants to study maths at university should be considering top universities and that should include Cambridge. But Cambridge make many more offers for maths than they have places (about two offers per place) and use STEP exams to weed out applicants. Some people then decide not to take up the offer but to accept one from a university that either doesn't use STEP or has less demanding offers. Warwick is a popular choice and she should also consider applying there. Encourage her to look at Bath and Imperial too. There is no point in pretending that competition for a Cambridge place is not tough - it is.

She shouldn't necessarily be deterred by STEP. There are resources to help here nrich.maths.org/10206 and she should also look at www.maths.cam.ac.uk/about/community/ and www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2807407 She should be told that doing badly on STEP papers initially does not mean she wouldn't get a place. It's a deliberately tough exam and there are mathmos now at Cambridge who found it very hard. The student room thread, and past threads, might help with that. Students used to getting 100% or near it can find STEP offputting but if you know that everyone else does too it may encourage you to perservere.

You could also encourage her to look at the Cambridge shadowing scheme if she is young enough (not obvious if further maths GCSE or A level) to take part www.applytocambridge.com/shadowing/ and maybe look at www.ukmt.org.uk/outreach/

Some state schools get involved in the Maths Challenge and more could be encouraged to do so.

PM me if I can help.

OK, I know nothing about Cambridge STEP papers, so I'll point them at these websites, thanks.

She's planning on taking a Gap year after A-levels and doing her UCAS application once she has all her grades, as I suspect the other grades won't be as good as her Maths results. Could she do STEP then or would she need to put in the usual UCAS application this October first?

What subjects is she doing at A2? Most successful applicants for Cambridge Maths would have Maths, FM, Physics plus a fourth subject, with high grades in all four (AAAA+), although offers are usually based on three subjects plus STEP grades. Without such grade predictions she would probably be better looking at other places although almost all top places would still want As in her other A2 subjects too - most top 10 places want AAA+ for maths.

If she isn't doing physics then she would have to check carefully with the colleges in Cambridge as some require/prefer physics - undergraduate maths contains a lot of physics.

Gap years are slightly discouraged for all maths students as they tend to get rusty. If a student wants to take year, they are advised to practise maths once a week to avoid forgetting too much.

I think it would be usual to do STEP with her A levels and then include the results in her UCAS application if applying after her results. It's fairly unusual for mathematicians to apply after their results. If her A2 predictions are strong, and she comes from a school with fairly low results, she would probably be better off just applying this year and seeing how it goes. Outside the very top five or six places Maths selects on grades i.e. students with the required predicted grades gets an offer. If her school's results are particularly low she may well get a slightly lower offer reflecting this.

do you need to be doing a fourth a level? or do people who are doing just 3 a levels (maths, fm, physics) plus being pretty successful with ukmt (dont want to be too specific in public) get offers too from Cambridge.

sorry if thats a bit garbled, sleep deprived!

OK, that's really useful about not taking a year out (and not the sort of advice she's getting from her school).

She's definitely doing maths and physics. Not sure about the others: possibly German/French, and the other might be music? Pretty sure not another science subject. 9 A and 1A at GCSE, so not the usual MN 11A profile but close.

Must go and do some work, and get back to worrying about whether my own DS (not the same academic profile as friend!) will in fact make it through his AS levels and be allowed back next year.

In principle you don't need a fourth A level for maths at Cambridge, which is why offers are based on three. In practice many or most successful candidates will have four (or five) more A2 subjects (as is clear from the average UCAS points tariff). For strong maths students, maths + FM generally takes less study time than two other A2 subjects.

There is no hard and fast rule, though, and the general guide

www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/admissions/guide.pdf

is careful to emphasise that individual circumstances are taken into account. So three A2s from a top private school in which almost all STEM students do four A2s is unlikely to result in an offer while three A2s from a school where virtually nobody does four A2s would be viewed differently.

I'm glad that this thread has taken a turn for the better and has given useful (and potentially life-changing!!) advice to a real person.

thanks Spinoa. Its a tricky decision for those who only want to do maths to the point of doing it in much of their spare time.

Why is she only doing 2 a levels at school? She should comfortably be able to manage FM without spending all her spare time on it. I think the university will be concerned about her ability to handle a greater workload.maybe something to address? Step papets are really a self taught thing with the help of online resources.

Umm, was that to me, Amybear, or OYBBK? I think you might have misread -- my friend's child is currently doing five AS-levels (the FM outside school, the rest in school). OYBBK's child is presumably doing 3 A2-levels including FM.

I've sent all those links and info off to them. Hoping she is encouraged to apply!

and my dd is contemplating which a levels to take (year 10) and I havent said exactly what maths it is that she does in her spare time amongst the other activities that she does. You have no idea of her workload which is voluntarily far greater than that of her friends.

I wasn't going to post my experience but the thread has taken a turn for the better. My DS went to an average comp and got a mix of A*/A at GCSE. He was never stretched or extended in Maths at secondary school.

It became clear at his sixth form college that his maths ability was excellent and he achieved near 100% scores in all his maths modules averaging 96% over all his science AS modules. He applied to Cambridge and his offer was A A A plus STEP 1,1. He self taught several Further Maths modules in addition to those in the college and did lots of practise STEP papers. In fact it's fair to say he spent more time on STEP than on his A levels.
He got no help at all from his college. None. There wasn't a single teacher with a clue about STEP.
I have read many times on MN that this does not matter because STEP does not need to be taught. This is contradicted by the comment But Cambridge do offer STEP courses for those from state schools which can't offer any preparation for STEP - Presumably to try and level the playing field.
Yet the top schools not only teach STEP they timetable it for their top Maths students.

In the end DS achieved A* in his four A levels but just missed the grade in STEP III. He went to his insurance uni at Warwick where he is in good company. Many of his co students doing Maths were also Cambridge offer holders who missed the STEP grade.

In the end it has worked well for him. He is happy, loving the course and doing well.

Again as Spinoa says, in hindsight, he might have chosen to apply to Oxford, do the MAT in the Autumn, and then get a decision with a reasonable offer based on A level grades in December, rather than risk having a very high offer with STEP grades from Cambridge, when the STEP results aren't known until August. On the other hand I think he might well have picked Warwick as his first choice .

Thank you Secret Squirrels :)

Incidentally I don't want it to look like sour grapes. It's one thing to be in a different league to all others in a school. That doesn't necessarily mean the same applies when competing with the best mathematicians in the country.

It doesnt look like sour grapes at all and Warwick is a superb place to study maths.

STEP is really a thing which is a combination of innate ability and development of your problem solving skills
I am not sure how someone would 'teach' you it.Although I guess paying independent school parents like to see it on the timetable! Cambridge do provide some classes for offer holders in the EAster holidays but by then it is a bit too late!!
The online material available is adequate for any prospective student who is mathmatical enough.

This is contradicted by the comment "But Cambridge do offer STEP courses for those from state schools which can't offer any preparation for STEP" - Presumably to try and level the playing field.
Yet the top schools not only teach STEP they timetable it for their top Maths students.

The courses are more to take away the fear of STEP than make a difference in the results.

It really isn't the case that many schools schedule lots of STEP classes or that these make a difference. In any case a near miss of a STEP 1 grade would often be viewed a bit differently for e.g. a St Pauls student and a comp student.

STEP is really a thing which is a combination of innate ability and development of your problem solving skills

I think it is forgotten that natural ability to problem solve can wither when hardly used. Students who are given more opportunities to engage in maths problem solving from an earlier stage in their schoolmust be at an advantage for tests like STEP or MAT compared to DCs who have to self teach themselves FM modules.

But somebody who has to self teach themselves FM may well be asked for lower STEP grades and will be more likely to be offered a place if they miss those grades. Each near miss is looked at taking into account the candidate's circumstances. I have had many, many students who had no help with STEP, no prior engagement with UKMT challenges, and nonetheless got 1s and Ss. The STEP papers mirror the tripos papers, and lower performance on STEP is strongly correlated with lower performance in the tripos.

Nonetheless I personally don't agree with the system of over offering and relying on performance in a couple of papers. I also think it would be healthier if Oxbridge was not put on a pedestal and perceived as automatically better than the other top universities - Cambridge can get away with such a brutal admissions policy because they are massively over-subscribed. If they were less over-subscribed and felt they were losing top candidates they would change the policy.

BTW mathematicians who want to carry on into academia or into top finance jobs face equally (or indeed more) brutal selection procedures.

What is the position with Maths and Computer Science degrees. Do students have to take STEP or not? Thanks.

Yes, they take STEP. Also for Maths with Physics.