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Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
FloraFox · 08/02/2014 19:29

migsy I believe you that you're not rolling in it. This is another myth about prostitution, that women can make lots of money. The pimps and punters talk about the hourly rate paid by the punter so it looks like a lot but after paying out pimps (your friend is a pimp), digital pimps like agencies or websites, landlord pimps who charge inflated rents, the numbers look a lot different. Have you ever worked out your hourly rate for all the time you are actually away from your child?

KimberlyC · 08/02/2014 19:32

migsy I don't understand who this friend is who does your advertising and gets you work, so I am unable to comment on that. It sounds odd to my ears, but I'm not sure exactly what he does for you.

I don't think "helping out mum" is necessarily the same thing "mum takes money off of me." It's not unusual for someone to financially help their parents. But if mum is simply demanding money because she feels she is entitled to your earnings as a prostitute, then that is obviously not right.

FloraFox · 08/02/2014 19:33

Kimberly you degendered your statement with the intention of including people like us though, didn't you?

Men are the source of danger for prostitutes. Obviously not every man is violent but the violence is part of a view that women can be purchased and that makes them lesser. You condone this.

KimberlyC · 08/02/2014 19:42

Kimberly you degendered your statement with the intention of including people like us though, didn't you?

No. If by "people like us" you mean you and the other participants in this discussion, absolutely not.

I don't think I agree that "men are the source of danger for prostitutes." For one, I would say that it is "some men" rather than just "men" (the way you put it sounds like you mean the male sex as a whole.) For another, there are women who will financially exploit prostitutes. I don't think it's a given that they do this because "men" are the source of the view that women are lesser. I think there can be a variety of motives, and greed can stand alone as a motive. To cynically exploit the vulnerable position of the prostitute may be mere opportunism.

I do not condone the view that women are lesser because they can be purchased. I don't think it follows that being able to purchase sexual services means the women are lesser and I don't think that it necessarily follows that I demonstrate by example that women are lesser. One could argue that I demonstrate the contrary through my personal example.

WhentheRed · 08/02/2014 19:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KimberlyC · 08/02/2014 20:00

Men are very much the primary purchasers of sexual services. The majority of men are heterosexual. So, the majority of the sex industry is men buying sex from women.

There are male prostitutes, of course.

Women who pay for sex so are extremely rare, with the exception of some sex tourism in places like the Caribbean.

SauceForTheGander · 08/02/2014 20:07

Of course women being bought is indicative of their inferiority.

KimberlyC · 08/02/2014 20:08

If they are being bought in the sense that you mean, yes. If they are selling a service, then not necessarily. I do not feel that I - as a person - am bought.

horsetowater · 08/02/2014 20:32

You could say that the power gained by paying for sex is the same as the power gained by paying for any other form of labour labour but most labour is something we can detach ourselves from, it doesn't demand intimacy.

Offering intimacy to anyone is making yourself very vulnerable. This is the thing that makes it different for women - intimacy plays a physically and psychologically fundamentally different part in women's lives. You can't physically have sex unless you have emotionally committed (however temporarily).

That's why for most women it is abhorrent to be a prostitute, there is a deep betrayal of the spirit involved and most people just can't do.

Why some people can is up for debate but most research shows that these people have been through some form of grooming process where they have become detached and normalised it.

migsy86 · 08/02/2014 21:54

People don't believe it but I feel NO emotion when I have sex. That's how I can do it. And I support my mum financially because she is genuinely struggling, she never asks me for cash but if I stopped giving her money she would suffer.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 08/02/2014 22:00

No, I believe you migsy. It sounds like dissociation. It's a common "skill" among people who have experienced traumatic things.

I don't want to sound annoying and pushy but really hope you can talk to someone about it. Please, take care.

WhentheRed · 08/02/2014 22:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox · 09/02/2014 00:30

I agree that women can financially exploit women in prostitution but you were talking about danger and it is true to say that men are the source of danger to women in prostitution. You can't know which men will actually be violent or dangerous, they are all potentially that man.

Men are the primary buyers of sex because they feel entitled to have the type of sex they want without regard for what the woman wants. Feminists have fought for women's sexual autonomy to be recognised and valued. You are selling your sexual autonomy and perpetuating beliefs that men are entitled to buy whatever sex they want, whether a woman wants it or not.

YoniMatopoeia · 09/02/2014 09:54

I'm delurking (just spent 2 days reading this thread).

I want to thank my fellow feminists for their interesting and insightful posts.

Migsy I do really hope that you call rape crisis abd access some counselling. Your posts have really touched me... Your honesty and vulnerability are heartbreaking. I hope you can find yourself in a better place soon.

jbo001 · 10/02/2014 07:08

Really is amusing.The old grammer police bit really is one of the weakest retorts you can lower to on message boards.It's in the same realms as the hitler argument.
So everybody on here knows the law pertaining to prostitution.Thats why shortly after my post we have a comment about legally being able to sell the body of a 16 year old.I think its pretty common knowledge that that would be illegal.Any form of sex work,and that includes stuff like modelling for page 3 has a minimum age of 18.
Then we had the prior comments about women being arrested for prostitution.In the event of a raid,if the police do not know who runs/owns the brothel they will take everybody in.They will however,have to release them due to the fact they havent commited any crime.The only other reasons they can take them in is for immigration issues or other illegal activity on the site.Presence of narcotics for instance,and thats to determine whos they are.
Also enjoyed the comparrison to the beef market.The reason we import so much is not to do with such a huge demand but more to do with the prices we are willing to pay.Its this demand for rock bottom prices,that along with other factors is leading to a decline in our agricultural industry.
Also the comments about whether they pay tax etc.Thats a tad insulting and the kind of comments i'd expect to see on certain sites by certain people.The same as,how loaded they must be charging all that cash.Some of you seem to have some very patronising views of women in prostitution.In fact you'd fit in quite well in certain punting forums.As for calling the ladies mother in essence a pimp.
Now we get to all the talk about male exploitation as well.Is it not true that a lot of agencies and brothels nowdays are owned and run by women?In fact i believe there was quite a high profile case fairly recently.
I'm glad to see you are all worried about all victims of traffickings and genuinely want to see them helped(yes that is sarcasm)
One thing i would however like to ask Migsy.Is there any chance you could please clarrify what your friend does for you and how he gets you work.Ie,does he purely do online stuff,maintain website for a flat fee,or is he more involved?
Oh and please,if you wish to insuly me,please don't use acronyms as i don't speak geek.Thanks

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/02/2014 07:28

jb you don't know the acronyms because you're not a member of MN. You registered to pursue an single-issue-agenda. You speak entitled-punter pretty fluently, though.

You haven't said anything that hasn't already been said here. DFO.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 10/02/2014 07:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox · 10/02/2014 09:47

Your writing is unintelligible which is probably indicative of its source. Hence, not interested in your critique of this discussion.

CaptChaos · 10/02/2014 09:48

What a lovely long reply. So many words. You must be so proud.

Such a shame that most of them were deriding the very women you want to be able to continue to pay to fuck.

Perhaps if you had bothered to read the whole thread instead of cherry picking things to get sad about you'd have known this. ODFOD. You can look that one up in the acronyms tab. I assume you know what one of those is?

horsetowater · 10/02/2014 10:05

In the event of a raid,if the police do not know who runs/owns the brothel they will take everybody in.They will however,have to release them due to the fact they havent commited any crime

Laws about evidence in these cases need to be changed, I don't know how they do it in Sweden/Norway.

If purchase is banned then all those punternet websites will become illegal making it much harder for the mainstream teenager to get access and get their minds warped.

There are many ways that the law can be changed to make it much much harder for prostitution to go on. This will protect a lot of very vulnerable people, men included - it does ruin men's lives as much as women's. It really doesn't help the punter's marital problems if he sees a prostitute, he just goes straight from the 'fixing the marriage' to 'destroying the marriage' in one 'purchase'.

Even if it still exists underground somewhere, disguised as swingers parties etc, it will be much harder for pimps, punters and prostitutes which will increase prices and prevent those desperate payday loan women getting involved.

migsy86 · 10/02/2014 10:19

Punternet and adultwork don't advertise sexual services. That's how they get around the law. I advertise my time and even adultwork has a disclaimer: "Note: Any money paid to the adult escorts listed on this website is for their time and companionship only. Whatever else that may occur if and when contact is made is the choice of consenting adults"

I work at adult parties and if the law were to change that's where most of my income would come from. Which needless to say is harder work for less money because there are more men and I get paid a flat rate for being there as 'entertainment'.

horsetowater · 10/02/2014 10:24

So do you think then that if they criminalised punters it wouldn't make any difference? Do you know what they could do to make it harder (not that I want to put you out of a job or anything) ;) .

migsy86 · 10/02/2014 10:39

I don't know horsetowater. I think because not advertised as prostitution, even at the minute, it would be very difficult to prove if someone was selling/buying sex.

I genuinely don't know how they would tackle the inside prostitution because there is so much going on at the minute under the guise of escorting/massage. Criminalising the buyer would more or less eliminate street prostitution but I don't know how they would begin to tackle the indoor industry.

horsetowater · 10/02/2014 10:55

Yes that's what I though, but I guess it does change the dynamic in that a punter would really have to trust you and know that you weren't going to report him. Trouble is you won't report him and he knows that!

Making it illegal might act as a deterrent.

You said there is so much going on at the minute - do you think that's because men are more into it or is it because there are more women doing it out of desperation?

quicknamechange111 · 10/02/2014 11:52

I can't believe Amnesty have done this. I was a sex worker, not prostitution but I was on a well known website and would offer services via webcam, telephone, texts. I'd take specific photos for people for money to and text chat. I made OK money from it. I was very young, 18/19 and a lot of men got off on how young I was. Infact, I used to use that as my main description of how young I was. I was a student at the time and had moved out and had next to no money. I cannot even imagine how it feels to sleep with men for money but I felt utterly degraded doing what I did. I guess I will never understand how anyone can enjoy it so it's difficult for me to comment. Some men would insist on cam to cam (so they turned their cam on to) I used to cover the laptop with a tea towel so I couldn't see them. It made me feel sick.

I did it for about a year and I remember feeling very unwanted. I never once felt desired by these men. It made me feel like a sex object and nothing more. I went on to have some really severe self esteem issues. I ended up having lots of one night stands on nights out in an attempt to make me feel "wanted" It never worked. I just felt used and even worse. I don't know whether me doing these things has been linked to my self esteem but it took me years to realize that no matter how many men "wanted" me it was never going to make me feel any better. These sort of men will fuck anyone, the way you look, the way you are doesn't come into it. I also did it to gain some "control" over my life but it never made it any better.

I was never raped as a child or anything but I did have some bad experiences. I had men grab at me and one force me against a wall touching me at 14 and I never said anything but looking back I know it was wrong.

This thread has really upset me and I really admire all the posts from Numpty she speaks a lot of sense and knows what she is talking about.

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