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Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
KimberlyC · 07/02/2014 21:56

lol so it's ok if we take your word only by saying, 'we genuinely believe you think that but you're mistaken'. hmm.

I am capable of genuinely believing something that is factually incorrect, yes.

I wouldn't tell migsy that her belief is mistaken just because she's deluded or in denial. I would only ask her why she felt she couldn't decline to do some things because it is possible that she is mistaken. For example, I know I have seen women ask "Do I have to do XYZ? It seems like everyone is doing it/the clients expect it" on the forum for escorts, and there have been people who answer "No. I don't do that and I am still making plenty of money."

KimberlyC · 07/02/2014 21:58

You believe that you are doing a good thing. We believe you are mistaken.

Well, that's fair enough. I would say, though, that it is like the argument about abortion. Some people have a visceral reaction to the very idea of abortion and think it's an abhorrent act. Other people think it's no big deal at all while others fall somewhere in the middle, often considering the factors of each individual circumstance.

NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 22:01

i believe you may genuinely believe you are doing a good thing which is me taking you at your word whilst calling you deluded.

you are on a thread about criminalising (or not) the purchasing of sex and arguing against those who think it should be illegal. one could see how we might genuinely believe you were campaigning for punters and pimps to be legally able to buy sex and for prostitution to be seen as a normal 'job'.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/02/2014 22:03

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NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 22:03

no it's not like abortion.

abortion does create the need to traffic women from all over the world for men to fuck up the arse the £30. abortion does not send the message in a society that already has epidemic levels of sexual and other violence towards women that women are fuck objects and not real human beings. abortion does not require girls to be sexually abused, gotten hooked on drugs, beaten, murdered and raped on a daily, sometimes hourly, basis.

ffs.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 07/02/2014 22:05

I'm bowing out of this discussion because I am uncomfortable with how migsy is being talked about, as if she's not here.

Migsy - you are young. You deserve much better than the life you are living now. I hope you will seek counselling and whatever other help you need to fulfill your potential. Good luck, I wish you well x

SauceForTheGander · 07/02/2014 22:05

I find the "empowerment" argument fascinating. Page 3 models say they are empowered, on the opposite end of this continuum women in burkas say they are empowered and now I read that prostitutes are empowered.

What it means to me is this : women are inferior to men, but when women behave in a way which gets approval and recognition from men they feel empowered

You don't have actual power when you're empowered - you've been given the nod of approval from men. You've been a good girl.

Because if soft porn, wearing a burka or being a prostitute really was powerful the heterosexual men would be doing it - because they are the ones with the power and control.

You might think you're empowered but it's a fallacy. You're behaving in the way the patriarchy want you to which isn't freedom, powerful or choice.

FloraFox · 07/02/2014 22:06

Paying for sex is inherently wrong and men who do it are not normal. They may look normal and speak nicely to you as long as you are pleasing them but they are not normal.

Society tells them that they are men and they have a right to the type of sex they want to have or have seen on some porn film. They have decided that they are entitled to have sex any way they want by throwing some money at a woman who does not want to have sex with them but has so little self esteem that she believes she is worth something because he is willing to pay her to do something he wouldn't ask a normal or, sadly as migsy says, "better" woman to do. This is at best. More often, they don't care what led the woman to the point where she is selling access to her body so long as she pretends she's okay with it.

Kimberly you are part of the reason why so many men can delude themselves into thinking the woman they are buying is fine and dandy with it.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/02/2014 22:08

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NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 22:09

women like kimberley make me wonder whether she isn't right and we should discriminate between prostitutes and see that some of them aren't victims, don't care who they hurt and have total agency. and then prosecute them.

NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 22:10

notice it's 'em' powerment not power. something given.

maybe my labrador feels empowered when i 'let' her in the garden or 'let' her have a treat. she'd have power if she could open the door herself and help herself to whatever she wanted to eat.

migsy86 · 07/02/2014 22:12

Im still here and thanks for the well wishes. I'm torn on this now.

NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 22:14

i would imagine migsy that at your end of the market it will be much harder to buffer your children from what you do than at kimberley's. i really think being torn is a good thing because you are still young, your child is young and there are still options.

NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 22:17

also bear in mind she has a degree and from the sounds of it all manner of privilege like having traveled etc to fall back on. it reminds me of when i was in my 20's going to traveler parties and thinking how brave and out there the people around me were only to discover that the most brave and out there seeming ones were trustfund kids with nothing to fear because the big comfy safety net was always right there.

your chances long term rely on what you do now and this path won't lead to opportunities or imo a pleasant future for you or your child.

migsy86 · 07/02/2014 22:18

I feel in control, but I don't know what over. During sex im not in control and I know this, this was proved again today. This discussion has made me think about a lot.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/02/2014 22:20

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/02/2014 22:21

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horsetowater · 07/02/2014 22:21

Part of the process of having sex is losing control and thoroughly trusting someone, which is why most people can't do it otherwise. It's normal to lose control which is why you should be more careful who you lose control with.

Have you ever read any books about this? Someone mentioned Rape Crisis to you before, perhaps they will be able to give you some specialist help?

migsy86 · 07/02/2014 22:29

I see someone from cmht anyway, I have bi-polar disorder. Ive never talked about anything that's happened in the past with people before. I know it sounds messed up but I just try and look at it as just something that happened and I need to man up and get on with it. But its been on my mind for the past few days now, usually I don't think about it.

horsetowater · 07/02/2014 22:32

It's absolutely normal, a human survival technique, to want to forget about a traumatic experience. Talking might get you back in touch with who you were before all this happened.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/02/2014 22:38

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SauceForTheGander · 07/02/2014 22:52

Migsy - I know it sounds very self help book of me but talking and admitting that you need help dealing with something are the very things that build you up and make you strong - even though it can feel like the opposite.

Take care . Flowers

WhentheRed · 07/02/2014 23:27

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scallopsrgreat · 07/02/2014 23:58

Not sure if this has been linked here yet but here is Cath Elliot and Julie Bindel doing an interview with Douglas Fox from Cath's blog.

jbo001 · 08/02/2014 03:08

I just couldn't bear the amount of misinformation on here.Firstly,prostitution cannot be decriminalised as it is already legal.To pay for,and to receive money for sex is legal,it's roadside solicitation that isn't and comes under the street offences act.
Pimps etc should be criminalised?They already are.Whereas a woman can legally work independently,alone from a premise,it is an offence to control prostitution for gain.
This also links into the well into the women could be forced to work as prostitutes or face losing their jsa.Utter tosh.Even if certain recomended changes were made to make the job safer,like allowing prostitutes to work together for protection,the nature of the laws pertaining to profiting from it mean it would still be a situation where you have to register as self employed.Now oddly enough the gvt can't make you register/work in self employed positions.If they could we technically would have zero unemployment.
I know some will pick up on the,for protection part and say,see it is a violent trade.Thats not what i'm talking about.Now prostitution is dangerous in the fact that a lot of idiots think it's illegal and know its mainly a cash industry.It's the belief of illegality that causes a big problem because if it was illegal you wouldn't be able to put your money anywhere.So you get people seeing them as the ultimate robbery opportunity.Shedloads of cash laying about with a victim that can't complain to the police
Now shall we get to trafficking.If you criminalise the buyer it will somehow stop this.How?As we see even from this thread of informed bodies,most people are under the assumption that prostitution is illegal already so it wouldn't stop those from seeing prostitutes.I suppose it would help police statistics as each punter caught and fined would show up as a crime solved.If you really do care about people that are trafficked you need to look at the building trades/labouring.The cleaning industry.How many of you have home cleaners.Do you know their exact circumstances?The catering industry.Child care/au pairs,dodgy dvd sales.You'll find far more in those fields if for no other reason than higher demand.
Now i know some will say that that's not so bad.Have a feeling that many on here will think that as for example,the building/labourers etc are mainly men.That attitude is a tad sexist but hey.They are still beaten,abused,starved if they wont/cant work or refuse.
Any action taken against trafficking is ultimately futile without help and protection from the home countries of the victims.Without that few people will speak out even if rescued,of fear for themselves,as well as a bigger fear for their families who would frequently pay the price.
Lastly,i've read a lot about the poor women forced into this desperate,dispicable situation.Well i take it that means only women enter prostitution,or at least need "rescuing" from the situation as you see it.
My final thought.Personally,i don't care how anyone choses to make their living.I wouldnt look at certain jobs as being "lower" as some on here have.If you're to be a banker,good on you.If you sweep the streets,again,good on you.And if you want to be a prostitute,then good on you to.It doesn't bother,or affect me what anyone does.Well unless they're a burglar and rob my house.Thats not so much fair play.
These discussions are best when you don't try to force your own ideals of morality onto people and try to dress it up as fact.And snobbery definately has no place.

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