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Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
katieAashley · 30/01/2014 10:55

Sorry if I have offended you, you seem to be getting railed up over my difference of opinion as I have notice you haven't left comments to any of the other ladies who would appear to have agreed with you,

I have not just stated the same opinion I have tried to explain in it in more depth or from a different angle so you can better understand it

Yes in my experience the people working in the sex trade from high end to low rent or independent workers have suffered from many different types of abuse in there personal lives but many people do some have drug problems but you can see lots of people with drug problems with in any area of the nhs the people with a question of there legal status in this country I have seen less of but this I assume is due to them not being allowed to come to clinics as there safety and personal care is not of high priority to the people who have brought them over here all I care about is trying to protect women and men in these industry prostitution will always go in I'm afraid how do you purpose we deal with it and protect people

Grennie · 30/01/2014 11:14

I don't believe Amnesty when they say they are just asking for opinions.

  1. They are currently in NI actively lobbying against the Nordic Model. They are speaking today in parliament against women who were prostituted and want the Nordic model.

2, An organisation that actually understood the issue would never produce a policy document that argued for men's human rights to buy sex. A document for debate would have presented both sides. Amnesty did not do this.

I am a member. If Amnesty passes this, not only will I no longer be a member, I will be actively campaigning for others to cancel their membership.

Grennie · 30/01/2014 11:16

We deal with this by decriminalising the women involved, giving them real help to tackle their issues, and criminalising the punters and pimps. If you don't criminalise the punters and pimps, you simply get new women who get coerced into the sex industry.

katieAashley · 30/01/2014 11:32

I definatly agree with decrimanilizing it for the women, from what I understand at the moment it's the women who get prosecuted and the men that go to theses places get nothing even if they know they are going to cheap low rate human trafficked non consenting adults places

Grennie · 30/01/2014 11:35

Katie - I agree, but that is not what Amnesty is proposing. They are proposing lobbying to decriminalise pimps and punters as well. Totally ignoring the evidence that it has been a disaster everywhere it has been tried.

I have read interviews with people who lobbied for this where they live e.g. transgender Mayor in USA, politicians in Amsterdam, who now say they were totally wrong, and it was a disaster.

Grennie · 30/01/2014 11:36

Amnesty have just posted this on their facebook page in response to a question asking about their lobbying against the Nordic Model in NI (Nordicx Model is decriminalising women, criominalising pumps and punters and giving women help to get out of prostitution).

"Whilst we are consulting members on a draft policy around sex work, at present we neither support nor endorse any specific state response, such as the Swedish model. In opposing Clause 6 and highlighting contradictory evidence around the Swedish model, we are simply urging the Northern Ireland Assembly to undertake deeper and wider reflection on this important human rights issue than is possible in considering a single clause in an anti-trafficking bill.

We've proposed that further research be conducted to establish the degree to which legislation – together with administrative, educational, social, cultural or other measures - could serve to reduce the demand that fuels trafficking, including for the purpose of sexual exploitation. We welcome Northern Ireland Department of Justice plans to commission research on this issue in 2014."

JuliaScurr · 30/01/2014 11:40

superloud
Unfortunately, it seems Merseyside is not compatible with Nordic because Merseyside relies on good relations between the women and the police - which some think is undermined by arresting their'clients'. But like you, I support both. Crucial to both is specalised exit therapy, housing, education, retraining etc - all in an age of austerity

JacqueslePeacock · 30/01/2014 12:53

I think this is really disappointing from Amnesty.

Even if there were any possible situation where supporting legal prostitution made sense*, then the argument in favour of legal prostitution IN TERMS OF MEN'S HUMAN RIGHTS TO BUY SEX would still be absolutely unthinkable. I am stunned that Amnesty would support this on these grounds.

*I'm really not sure that there is - although I suppose I'm thinking about in the developing world where it may sometimes be one of the only alternatives to starving.

Grennie · 30/01/2014 13:06

Slavery in some places may be the only alternative to starving. Amnesty rightly don't lobby for harm reduction for slaves.

CuntyBunty · 30/01/2014 13:15

It is slavery in alot of cases though, isn't it? Sad It would seem much of prostitution is coerced.

GotMyGoat · 30/01/2014 16:26

It's in terms of women's human rights to do what they wish with their bodies, how we set up support and legal system to stop all the negative stuff surrounding prostitution -abuse, traffiking, pimps etc. i don't know - hopefully Amnesty have some ideas?

JacqueslePeacock · 30/01/2014 16:27

No, quite, Grennie, and even if they did I can't imagine it would be in terms of the slave-owners' "human rights to buy other people"!

Grennie · 30/01/2014 16:59

Goat - Amnesty haven't a clue what they are talking about. That is obvious from their policy document. There is lots of real evidence out there that they are ignoring. Their policy document reads as if it was written by pimps.

GotMyGoat · 30/01/2014 17:13

Ah - fair enough then, I would have trusted them as writing proper reports and stuff. I can see why people are pissed off with them if that is the case.

WhentheRed · 30/01/2014 17:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Grennie · 30/01/2014 17:18

We should ask them which "sex worker" groups they have consulted. Some of them are very clearly sponsored by pimps. If they are listening to them, the policy document makes sense.

Grennie · 30/01/2014 17:19

Yes they have only opened the consultation out to members, because of the protests. I suspect they have been caught on the hop. But this isn't going away. I keep seeing in other groups, women talking about campaigning against this policy of Amnestys. Remember we have only know about this for a few days.

GotMyGoat · 30/01/2014 17:26

I suppose, in some parts of the world women who are found to be prostitutes might be imprisoned or executed (alike to 'adulterers' - some who are actually raped), so amnesty might be trying to find ways to save lifes by encouraging the practice to be legal?

They must have good thinking - they must have women's best interests at heart. If a woman can offer physio or therepeutic services with her hands for money, then I don't see why she can't make money with her vagina - IN THEORY (you know, the perfect world - none of the bad stuff, fully consenting, safe etc, which is what amnesty are talking about) I am going to sit tight on this one and wait for more information.

Grennie · 30/01/2014 17:34

www.scribd.com/doc/202126121/Amnesty-Prostitution-Policy-document

This is the leaked policy document. And nobody thinks the women should be criminalised.

Amnesty has actually just said in the NI Parliament that they oppose the criminalisation of punters. So it is a lie when they say no policy decisions have been made.

FloraFox · 30/01/2014 17:51

Got why do you think Amnesty must have women's best interests at heart? Have you read the documents produced by Amnesty? They make it clear that they consider a buyer's sexual desires to be a human need and governments should not interfere with their "strategies" to obtain sex if they are unable or unwilling to use the traditional routes.

This viewpoint is consistent with neo-liberalism or libertarianism and there will be lots of Amnesty members (and execs) who broadly subscribe to that thinking. It has bugger all to do with women's best interests.

DonkeySkin · 30/01/2014 17:52

Thanks Mary and thanks for your staunch advocacy for the Swedish Model in the European Parliament. I was heartened to hear that you have recently persuaded the Women’s Rights and Gender Equality Committee to adopt this position.

I feel though, as others have mentioned, that engagement with Amnesty (or at least the IISC, which produced this document) on this issue is futile.

People seem to be tweeting them and writing to them in good faith that they have somehow just made an error of policy judgment, and if we educate them re: the facts of prostitution, we can get them to rethink their position. This is what they also imply with their 'it's up for consultation' soothing noises.

Brace for rant

As the world's largest human rights organisation, there is no way Amnesty is unaware of the vast body of research available on the 'imperfect context' in which the global sex-industry operates - indeed, some of its own branches have contributed to that research!

This body of evidence (some of which Mary referenced in her article) includes replicated studies documenting the astronomical levels of violence (including the highest murder rates of any other studied cohort) suffered by prostituted women and girls; on the outcomes (explosion in human trafficking, expansion of illegal industry and involvement of organised crime) of the legalisation models in the Netherlands and Germany vs the outcomes in Sweden; the health research (including early mortality rates, high addiction rates and levels of PTSD) on the effects of prostitution on persons who sell sex; the social science that documents the reasons people give for entering prostitution (most often coercion by a third party, poverty and homelessness) and the numbers (around 85%-92% depending on the area being studied) who wish to exit, nor of the age at which most people enter the 'industry' - which is, in many places for which stats are available, as children.

Testimony and analysis which details, in ways both philosophically rigorous and intimately personal, this grim picture of the sex industry as an institution that facilitates human rights abuses on massive scale is provided by survivors' groups like SPACE, WHISPER and Canada's Sex-Trade 101 and writers like Rachel Moran and Rebecca Mott.

Yet, Amnesty chose not to reference any of this evidence, or even to acknowledge the existence of prostitution survivors' perspectives, in its draft document. In other words, this is neither a policy document nor a consultation paper, in that it does not properly evaluate all the evidence in order to determine the best policy, nor does it present evidence that would allow readers to evaluate the different approaches themselves.

It is a purely ideological document, which echoes precisely the inherently contradictory arguments of sex-industry lobbyists: that decriminalisation of johns and pimps is needed in order to protect the women in prostitution from the violence and disease inflicted by those same johns and pimps; that people who oppose this are the ones who may be held responsible for the continuation of this harm; and yet, despite this endemic harm and the urgent need for harm reduction, prostitution is experienced by the majority in it as empowering, freely chosen and consensual; that it should therefore be regarded as work like any other and integrated into the labour market; and yet, at the same time, it is a private sexual behaviour with which the state should not interfere.

Thus, it's abundantly clear that the IISC of Amnesty International has not missed the research documenting the horrifying material realities which underlie the global sex industry - it has deliberately chosen to ignore it.

This is deeply sinister, IMHO, and indicates that the IISC has been influenced, either by money or strategic positioning within the organisation, by sex-industry profiteers and ideologues.

Grennie · 30/01/2014 17:56

Donkey - I am a member of Amnesty. I can't just walk away without a fight.

FloraFox · 30/01/2014 19:10

www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/northern_ireland/

Amnesty about to give evidence live now

NumptyNameChange · 30/01/2014 19:19

exactly donkey - being who they are and the work and research they've been a party to it is literally IMPOSSIBLE that they just don't understand or having read the real evidence or facts of the outcomes of the legalisation model versus the swedish model. they know! they know fully and more deeply and with more evidence than any of us.

it really is simply that they don't care about that as much as they care about the perceived freedom and rights of men to purchase sex without state interference. those are the facts no matter how unpalatable we may find them, no matter how confronting it may be to look at them and no matter how gut wrenching it is to lose faith in yet another organisation or movement that you had pinned hopes upon.

they know damn well that legalisation results in increased trafficking amongst other things and they do.not.care.

they've nailed their colours to the wall and the only real question is whether people confront the discomfort/cognitive dissonance/disappointment etc and see reality or if they prefer to applaud the emporer's clothes at the cost of their integrity and coherent beliefs and being.

it really is this simple: they support the rights of men to buy sex OVER the rights of girls and women not to be trafficked, exploited and abused by pimps and johns. they support the rights of men to buy legally and without fear of sanctions or disapproval OVER the rights of women to live in a world where they are not reduced to being cattle for men's pleasure. they support the rights of men to do this OVER the rights of women not to be kidnapped from villages in poor countries to cities where they are sold into brothels and held hostage.

their concern is for men not to be criminalised not for women to avoid being used and abused in the most dangerous 'business' on earth.