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Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
KimberlyC · 07/02/2014 19:34

I have sexual pleasure during most of my bookings. I just had an orgasm less than an hour ago and got paid £200 for it. The primary objective of the encounter is definitely to make the man feel good, but the ones I see genuinely want me to enjoy myself. It is sex.

I agree that television shows like Diary of a Call Girl are ridiculous and glamourise something that is generally pretty mundane, at best.

There absolutely are many, many women in the world who are prostitutes only because they are desperate or because they are outright forced. I would say that they are the majority of prostitutes, in fact. I would guess that I am one of the 1% worldwide who is a genuinely happy hooker. I live in an affluent society and I have other options. (This is not to say that I could make anything like this kind of money doing something else, but I could do other things and have a good life.) I would say that if I won the lottery, I wouldn't charge money for sex any more but I would still have sex with strangers, either at swingers clubs or just pulling at a pub or club. (I actually still do this - pull and get laid with someone I just met because they are attractive and that's what I feel like doing at the time.)

I am not insensitive to the plight of women who are forced into prostitution. But I don't think that the same broad brush should be applied to all prostitutes. I don't think it's inherently wrong to have sex with someone for money. I think the more shame that is heaped up on the idea, the easier it is for abuse to flourish. But, in the end, I don't think we will ever eradicate all the "unhappy" hookers. There will always be women who are doing it and are not happy about it - perhaps not forced or coerced, but otherwise doing it for reasons that are not healthy. And, there will always be cocklodgers - not exactly pimps but definitely emotionally abusive leeches.

In order to eliminate as much true trafficking and pimping as possible, we need to be very clear on exactly what are the problems and target those. There is nothing wrong with wanting to pay someone for sex and being hysterical about "The Patriarchy" and insisting that we are all poor victims in need of rescuing is also wrong.

migsy86 · 07/02/2014 19:48

I agree with everything you said Kimberly. I wouldn't say that the majority of prostitutes are unhappy though. I too could do something else but I don't want to, im good at this.

I don't feel that doing this for the cold hard cash is unhealthy, because before I started charging I was giving it away for all the wrong reasons. I would have sex with someone if they showed me the slightest bit of attention and would feel like shit when they wanted nothing to do with me the next day, it was awful. Now I feel more in control, I have sex and am being fully compensated for it rather than a few drinks and a free taxi home.

NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 19:51

but if you're conceding 99% of prostitutes are outright forced or miserable in their work surely that's reason enough to criminalise the buying of sex? their situation profits you in that no one is going to criminalise selling sex because they associate that 99% with it and so you'll always get to hide behind them and not be in fear of prosecution yourself.

are you realise saying yep, for 99% of workers it's shit but we should legalise it for the sake of not interupting custom for the 1%? Confused

if 99% of workers in any other industry were in such awful conditions would you advocate legalising all aspects of it because 1% enjoyed it?

NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 19:52

good at what? taking £30 and letting a bloke shag you up the arse?

i reckon you could rise to bigger challenges migsy.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 07/02/2014 20:03

Migsy, have you ever had a healthy, loving sexual relationship?

NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 20:06

i suspect what you mean that you're good at is dissociation from your own body and psyche as a trauma response. awfully sad that you see that as something to make a living from rather than something to see therapeutic help with.

KimberlyC · 07/02/2014 20:11

"taking £30 and letting a bloke shag you up the arse? "

That is a cruel and nasty thing to say. You're now entering slut-shaming territory.

When I say that I am in the 1% I mean that worldwide I am in a tiny minority. Worldwide I would bet that most seamstresses are in sweatshops, for that matter. In affluent countries like the UK, there are many more of us "happy hookers." Just how happy we may be would vary, but I would say that there are quite a few of us who choose to do this over other viable options. I don't know if we're the majority or the minority. I would guess that I am among the very happiest of the happy hookers because of my age and life experience and personal inclinations. But I don't think it's "shit" for most of us independent escorts.

There is a difference between the street girls who are trying to support a drug habit and the women who work like I do. And many varying types in between the two extremes. The difference isn't because they're worse or less than, but only in their motivations. The motivations need to be the focus of our concern... the addictions, the pimps, the abuse. And even then, we maybe have to accept that women have the right to choose their own path in life. Just like we can't go drag women away from an domestic abusive partner. All we can do is criminalise abuse and constantly offer support and encouragement so that they can make good choices when they are ready.

KimberlyC · 07/02/2014 20:14

*I agree with everything you said Kimberly. I wouldn't say that the majority of prostitutes are unhappy though. I too could do something else but I don't want to, im good at this.

I don't feel that doing this for the cold hard cash is unhealthy, because before I started charging I was giving it away for all the wrong reasons. I would have sex with someone if they showed me the slightest bit of attention and would feel like shit when they wanted nothing to do with me the next day, it was awful. Now I feel more in control, I have sex and am being fully compensated for it rather than a few drinks and a free taxi home.*

I completely relate to this. I turned my first trick when I was 20 years old. I did it on the street. I did it primarily out of curiosity but also because I was short of cash. I found it empowering because where I had been before was much like you described. (I was never raped or molested, but I had a low self esteem, probably due to bullying.) I did that a few times and then found a safer way to work than kerb crawling. But I wasn't always "high class" by any means. It was prostitution that enabled me to attend a prestigious university and travel the world. It just happened to work for me.

I did leave the life for a while - got a white collar job and everything so that I could get married and have children. I'm now separated from my husband but I have my children, I have my education, I have everything I need in life... and I choose to be a prostitute.

NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 20:19

i am not slut shaming and it is beyond cynical that you try that twist. i was pointing out, perhaps too subtly hence my second post, that the 'good at' was not what she was 'doing' but her surviving it, and the method of surviving it not good for anyone. but hey ho. you use whoever you like however you like to further your cause which is to avoid men becoming criminalised for buying sex from prostituted in order that the likes of your 1% can rake it in in part by standing out from and being different to the other 99% and charging a premium for it.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 07/02/2014 20:36

KimberleyC, I thought your post at 19.34 was actually fairly reasonable, even though I disagree with some of it.

I agree that a v.v. small percentage of the world's prostitutes are genuinely happy hookers, who didn't enter into it from some sort of desperation.

I would say that if I won the lottery, I wouldn't charge money for sex any more but I would still have sex with strangers, either at swingers clubs or just pulling at a pub or club. (I actually still do this - pull and get laid with someone I just met because they are attractive and that's what I feel like doing at the time.)

I would just like to point out that that is how many people behave, and I have no problem with it. I've done it myself before I got married - but I never had any negative feelings about it afterwards. Btw, genuine feminists are not the ones to slut-shame, or argue against people having casual sex. Contrary to the libertarians' views, we are not prudish.

Where you and I part company is that I don't know how the sex trafficking part of prostitution can be treated as a separate issue. Trafficked/coerced women are advertised in exactly the same ways as the prostitutes who have entered into it willingly. Punters cannot tell the difference - they are often forced to act as though they're doing it willingly too.

As Numpty said - we shouldn't put social justice laws in place to protect the privileged 1% - they need to protect the vulnerable majority.

migsy86 · 07/02/2014 20:41

I don't know how id be affected by the law if it became illegal to buy sex. I don't actually advertise myself as a prostitute, I advertise as an escort, the services I offer are on a 'likes' list. I suppose this would be ok to keep doing since the men are paying me for my time? I just think this law works best for street prostitution and brothels, but the independents like me would still be able to work.

FloraFox · 07/02/2014 21:11

migsy the men are not paying you for your time. You said earlier you would never say no to sex. If the world were a nicer place, I would suggest that you say to one of these men that you don't feel like having sex but you will keep the money and spend time with him to see how he reacts. However, the reality is that he could get violent with you. He will certainly jump onto p net or whatever website you use to tell all and sundry how you cheated him.

KimberlyC cruel and nasty is paying a woman young enough to be your daughter to shag her up the arse while she is pregnant for 30 quid. If everything is so lovely in your world, what's wrong with what numpty said? You're saying it's fine to get shagged up the arse for 30 quid, aren't you? Seems a bit pearly-clutchy to get worked up because someone says it as it is rather than dresses it up talking about special skills or some other horseshit.

migsy women who have been abused often try to take some feeling of control over their abuse by re-enacting it. You've had a horrible trauma that would be life-affecting for anyone. Lots of women in prostitution have been through this and they often talk about separating themselves from the act of sex or that they were giving it away anyway. I do understand that you might feel that you are empowered because you are repeating the trauma but now you feel in control or at least compensated for it. And you're alive and healthy (for now), so it couldn't have been that bad, what happened to you. But you're not in control and what happened to you was very bad. You really should speak to someone about counselling as others have suggested. Even if you don't want to exit now, you need to talk to someone. You are worth so much more than you seem to think.

grimbletart · 07/02/2014 21:12

So, although Migsy and Kimberley you have different past experiences you both seem to be saying you had the same problem before getting into prostitution - low self esteem.

No one forced either of you, so in that sense you chose it but it seemed that you were "forced" in another way i.e to feel you were able to "take control" (Migsy) or be "empowered" (Kimberley) by being paid for something that you had previously given away for free.

That's one of the reasons why I think many of us posters believe that the argument that it is a choice is flawed. It's not really free choice if there is something in your experiences or personality that led you almost inevitably towards your trade.

What I find sad is, contrarily to my young days, women seem to think they cannot say "I don't want to have sex" or even "No". It's not an original thought I know, but while women's liberation has given so many the right to say "Yes" it seems to have taken away the right to say "No". That is not what I and, I suspect, the majority of my generation of feminists intended.

NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 21:14

it's illegal to run a brothel hence pimps are at risk of prosecution - that's what wanting this law is really about in my opinion. if buying sex is legal then selling women is a legitimate business. and this isn't just male pimps - as i said earlier when i did research all of the people running these business' were women who'd moved on from prostituting themselves or having pimps to becoming the pimps themselves and profiting from other girls doing the work and recruiting.

KimberlyC · 07/02/2014 21:26

You're saying it's fine to get shagged up the arse for 30 quid, aren't you?

Well, yes. If that is what someone wants to do. I got shagged up the arse earlier tonight. I got £200, but I spent two full hours with the man compared to £30 for 15 minutes, so my hourly rate is actually lower. The important thing is if she feels OK about it. Earlier in the thread she indicated that she felt she couldn't refuse to do certain acts or see certain people and I think that's very troubling. I think that it's a false belief on her part, but I don't know enough to say. I just know that it's absolutely crucial to my own contentment that I only do what I want to do.

That's one of the reasons why I think many of us posters believe that the argument that it is a choice is flawed. It's not really free choice if there is something in your experiences or personality that led you almost inevitably towards your trade.

I don't think it was inevitable and I do think it was a free choice. We all of us choose to do things in our lives that we are conditioned to do in some way. That is, our experiences, culture, upbringing, etc. will generally guide us in certain directions. It is up to us to make specific choices. My experience was a positive one. That is the important point. I was there. I know how I felt about it and how I still feel about it today. I have had bad experiences and felt crummy afterwards. I know what that feels like, too. I don't need people to tell me how I really feel. I'm sort of reminded of that "repressed memory" fad some years ago where it was believed that there were lots and lots of victims of sexual abuse who had repressed their memories. People used to tell me that I must have been molested as a child and that I was either lying about it or had repressed the memories. That always annoyed the shit out of me. You have to take women at their word. That's part of respecting their autonomy.

grimbletart · 07/02/2014 21:39

Kimberley: you say have to take women at their word. OK. But in the same post you thought that Migsy's statement was a false belief on her part (though you did qualify your comment), so you were not really taking her at her word yourself were you?

KimberlyC · 07/02/2014 21:41

I don't know how id be affected by the law if it became illegal to buy sex. I don't actually advertise myself as a prostitute, I advertise as an escort, the services I offer are on a 'likes' list. I suppose this would be ok to keep doing since the men are paying me for my time? I just think this law works best for street prostitution and brothels, but the independents like me would still be able to work.

I don't think it would affect my income, either. I have worked in a country where it's illegal to sell sex and aside from a bit of paranoia, there was no negative impact.

If anything, I am arguing against my own self interests, here. If everyone were truly comfortable with sex for money, and there were no stigma, then it wouldn't pay very well at all.

I just really hate the generalisations. The clients are not monsters (not the ones I see, anyway.) The women are not all victims. I am not an ammoral monster hellbent on spreading disease and breaking up families as I trample over the backs of trafficked women just to get my greedy paws onto some money. I'm a nice, normal woman who happens to be a prostitute. And I know that I am not the only one.

KimberlyC · 07/02/2014 21:44

Kimberley: you say have to take women at their word. OK. But in the same post you thought that Migsy's statement was a false belief on her part (though you did qualify your comment), so you were not really taking her at her word yourself were you?

I take her at her word in that I believe she believes that, herself. I don't think she's lying or trying to deny her true belief to the contrary. But I do believe that she is likely mistaken. I think she might well be able to be much choosier than she is. I don't know why she feels the way she does so I cannot be sure. But I know there are women of all shapes, sizes, and ages who charge high prices and are picky about what services they provide. What I definitely believe is that she should feel fine about whatever it is she does decide to do.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 07/02/2014 21:45

My experience was a positive one. That is the important point.

Yes, that's clearly the most important thing in all this. Glad you're alright Jack Kimberly.

Meanwhile,

You have to take women at their word.

I am reading Migsy's words and I find them heartbreaking.

I slept around a lot in my youth. I had lots of encounters which, looking back, were not good for me or healthy. I also suffered from low self esteem. There were a few points where it would have been quite possible for me to go the route Kimberly and Migsy have taken. Even now, if things were desperate enough, I would consider it.

Never ever could I imagine paying for sex though. I think that's a despicable thing to do.

Woman sells sex = survival
Man buys sex = orgasm

^^ there's the power imbalance, right there.

NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 21:46

when their word is i want i want and i don't give a damn who else gets hurt i'm not duty bound by feminism to think your word is worthy of consideration.

feminism isn't about blindly supporting a woman as she goes about hurting other women knowingly and without a care because she prefers pleasing men and making £200 for getting shagged up the arse.

your 'choice' is a selfish and destructive one and that's fine to an extent but when you campaign to inflict the ramifications of your 'choice' onto generations of young women and still to come, here and all over the world who will be worse off because of it that's not fine and i cannot support you purely because you are female.

NumptyNameChange · 07/02/2014 21:51

lol so it's ok if we take your word only by saying, 'we genuinely believe you think that but you're mistaken'. hmm.

KimberlyC · 07/02/2014 21:51

but when you campaign to inflict the ramifications of your 'choice' onto generations of young women and still to come, here and all over the world who will be worse off because of it that's not fine and i cannot support you purely because you are female.

I am doing no such thing. I am "campaigning" for people to be reasonable and stop insisting that they know better than the women who are talking to them.

What I do is a good thing. There is nothing inherently wrong with paying for sex or selling sex. Abuse, poverty, coercion, and sexual shame are all inherently bad.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 07/02/2014 21:53

There is a lot inherently wrong with paying for sex.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/02/2014 21:54

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/02/2014 21:55

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