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Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
CaptChaos · 08/02/2014 04:26

Not snobbery.

If you had actually read any of the posts, we all know that prostitution is legal in the UK within certain parameters.

Interesting name change.

FloraFox · 08/02/2014 05:18

TL:DR. You can GTF with the conversation policing though.

WhentheRed · 08/02/2014 06:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox · 08/02/2014 07:15

I started to read it but I couldn't face the crap punctuation for such a long post. I read just enough to make me realise it was just another punter on to tell us where we are going wrong. GTF.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/02/2014 08:34

jbo01 - RTFT or FTFO.

hth Smile

NumptyNameChange · 08/02/2014 09:00

if there is less demand for beef there is less demand for importing cheap cattle.

i the demand for cattle is so high that british farmers can't meet it the industry looks further afield, finds the cheapest prices and to hell with the living conditions of those cattle or their wellbeing.

hope this is simple enough for you hth. by the way the key difference here is that actually women are not meat to be bought and sold and shipped around the world to cater for demand. none the less this is simple supply/demand stuff and the sex industry does indeed behave as if women were cattle or some other 'product' that needs to be sourced cheap and made maximum profit on.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/02/2014 09:39

That's what is so dangerous about Amnesty's argument that men have a 'right' to purchase sex.

The punters think they have paid for consent to fuck that prostitute, on that occasion

They don't care whether she has genuinely and freely consented to be in the sex industry in the first place.

SauceForTheGander · 08/02/2014 10:18

I'm ignoring the mansplaining - it's illegible and I know my research on this topic is thorough and without prejudice. Unlike I also know to my very core that I am putting women and equality first. No man who thinks he can rent a vagina can say that.

What's also sad about this is that I get alerts from Amnesty - as I have for nearly 30 years and I've stopped reading them. I've lost faith in AI. I feel terrible about that. But I can't help it.

SauceForTheGander · 08/02/2014 10:19

Oops a superfluous "unlike" there - sorry!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/02/2014 13:53

I just listened to the first bit of the Douglax Fox interview that Scallops linked to:

DF: "What you call pimps, we call managers" - He actually said it Shock Hmm

I had thought she had just inferred it from what he said. What a slimy horrible man he is.

migsy86 · 08/02/2014 14:12

This link is a good one, jesrichardson.com/prostitution-laws/

Posted this on the other thread but take the emotive side of sex out the equation and what you have is a product. I market my product (myself) well, I get 70% profit for selling of my product. The sex industry is a business and it should be looked at as such.

WhentheRed · 08/02/2014 14:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

migsy86 · 08/02/2014 15:33

I am self employed and pay taxes and ni contributions ect, I rent the room and I pay for that.

I'm still human obviously, I just choose to view myself as my business product.

I set my own hours but obviously how much I earn has to cover the rent on the room and still allow me to take home some money at the end of the day. I see around 10 people a day, these appointments can range from 15mins to 2hrs, I do overnights too. I also work at adult parties and can make a lot of money for those but its harder work.

horsetowater · 08/02/2014 15:43

Migsy you must be loaded if you're seeing 10 clients a day. Are you saving up or are there a lot of overheads? I hope you're getting a good profit.

migsy86 · 08/02/2014 15:59

Im not loaded at all, I have a lot of debt and also pay a childminder, rent for the room ect, and help my mum out with money. Im not rolling in it.

migsy86 · 08/02/2014 16:23

I also pay my friend for advertising ect, he bring me work. So yes I suppose there is a lot of overheads before I take home my wage.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/02/2014 18:27

migsy your friend is your pimp.

KimberlyC · 08/02/2014 18:43

I don't think of myself as the product. I think of myself as selling a service. And I don't think that what I am doing is really any different than selling a massage. In fact, one form of prostitution is to do a massage that includes massaging the penis to climax.

But I am not really the product. I am, perhaps, a brand in the sense that I market my services based on my particular look and personality. But I remain intact and at the end of the session, still in full possession of myself.

I would say that I am privileged in the sense that I live in an affluent society. But I am not privileged by the standards of that society. It is true that I was born into a loving family that valued education and that I am intelligent, but my family was not affluent. I paid for my own education and travel (through prostitution.) I was privileged to be born into a society in which this was possible, but I wouldn't consider myself privileged compared to others born at the same place and time.

I do know there are women prostituting in Britain who did not have the advantages I had. They may have been raised in unhappy homes, or they may come from poor countries where women have fewer opportunities. But they are all on a spectrum of sorts in terms of how much power they have over their own lives. At one extreme are those who are physically forced into prostitution and then it continues on to those who, for a variety of reasons, believe that they have no other options, and at the other extreme are some "happy hookers" who feel that they have managed to achieve affluence beyond what they otherwise could by doing something they enjoy doing.

The politically vocal prostitutes I know want to see laws that make working safer and easier. Being able to share a flat for safety, for example. In some cities this is tolerated while in others it is not, but it should be legal to do it. Prostitution absolutely is dangerous. It is dangerous because there are people who believe that prostitutes are not autonomous human beings with the right to life and property. But I feel that pity isn't all that different than contempt: it's not that different to insist that we are are all victims in need of rescuing. To do so ignores the fact that we are individuals who have the right to choose what we do.

horsetowater · 08/02/2014 18:52

Kimberley the fundamental thing you have forgotten is that nobody needs to be a prostitute. So why bother? Why not just get a job that has a future?

FloraFox · 08/02/2014 18:57

"Prostitution absolutely is dangerous. It is dangerous because there are people who believe that prostitutes are not autonomous human beings with the right to life and property."

That's a load of crap. Prostitution is dangerous because men believe they are entitled to treat women's bodies like fuck toys without regard for their humanity. They feel entitled to do whatever they want to women's bodies and you are telling them they are right.

horsetowater · 08/02/2014 19:02

Migsy your mother takes money off you? I really believe you should talk to someone about your predicament. You are trapped by everyone around you, even your own mother. Perhaps if you try talking to Womens Aid. The fact that you feel under pressure to do this means effectively in legal terms that you are being trafficked. Your mother ought to be careful about taking money off you. No wonder it is hard for you to see this in perspective.

www.ecpat.org.uk/content/definition-trafficking

www.womenssupportproject.co.uk/content/contactus/187,186/

www.rapecrisislondon.org/content/prostitution-and-trafficking

Rape Crisis 0808 802 99 99

WhentheRed · 08/02/2014 19:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SauceForTheGander · 08/02/2014 19:17

It's dangerous to be a woman. Prostitutes are generally women.

SauceForTheGander · 08/02/2014 19:25

whenthered that was my point - but you made it much better. Smile

KimberlyC · 08/02/2014 19:26

Horsetowater, plenty of jobs have little in the way of a future. Of those jobs, prostitution can pay better than most.

Florafox I would say that the belief that women's bodies can be treated like fucktoys is under the umbrella of "not autonomous human beings with the right to life and property." But there are a variety of motives. Some people prey on prostitutes simply because they think they're easy targets for robbery or financial exploitation, (and some of these people are women.)

I don't think the majority of men who see me view me as a fucktoy without regard for my humanity. A fucktoy, perhaps, to varying extents. But I don't have some magic detector at my door that sees into the motives and beliefs. I have seen men who don't seem to respect me very much, and I have probably seen men who behave very politely but are just pretending to respect me. But I definitely see a lot of men who see me as a full person and very much want to relate to me as a fellow human being. However, other than standing up for my own rights and insisting on being treated well, I have no control over how they feel. I don't consider that my responsibility, either. I maybe flatter myself that I demonstrate to them that I am their moral and intellectual equals, entitled to their respect.

I agree that by participating in sex work, I am contributing to the idea that there is nothing wrong with purchasing sexual services. There can be no doubt about that. But I don't know if it necessarily follows that I am reinforcing the belief that women can be viewed solely as sex toys.

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