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Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
NumptyNameChange · 04/02/2014 20:24

migsy can you see that by being a part of this industry you take part in reinforcing and perpetuating the culture that led to a group of men deciding you were a 'thing' to be raped as a child? do you face the reality that your 'choice' actually contributes to a culture in which another young girl can be gang raped and in which a judge can say ah well maybe there were mixed messages or trivialise it in other ways. honest question here - do you get that?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 04/02/2014 20:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NumptyNameChange · 04/02/2014 20:28

in a world where women are saying fucking me isn't a big deal, fucking me when i don't find you attractive and in a decent equal society where economics weren't a consideration i wouldn't let you touch me let alone fuck me, i am a 'thing' that can be bought nasty rapey men (be they rapists or judges) will take your word for it and use it against women who are raped, abused, beaten etc. do you get that at all? do you see female children in your day to day life? do you have any concern for what they will have to face in their lives?

NumptyNameChange · 04/02/2014 20:30

yeah but i'm being mean by the standard rhetoric buffy - i'm blaming the victim etc. but i'm afraid i can't watch people exploit actual victims in order to get their own way and say oh that's ok because you have a vagina.

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 20:44

well of course i dont know if there are ever any men who really want to gangrape someone...but thats like saying noone should fuck any man or do any bondage etc as he may be harbouring a desire to tie up and rape a woman one day..
All i know is I love the Fantasy of rape,but wouldnt actually like real rape.So I believe men should have the same right to fantasise about raping a woman,but that doesnt mean he would enjoy actually raping one.

Yes most of the men i turn away will find someone else willing..and yes potentially that could be a woman who is being forced into it or has a drug habit etc.
That is not my responsibility though.
Those women need help and obviously any pimp or drug dealer etc needs prosecuting.
And yes I do feel good when I am complemented on sex/wanted by men.
My ex husband did nothing but reject me and make me feel like i was on the scrap heap after two children.Perhaps what I enjoy now is all his fault??

grimbletart · 04/02/2014 20:48

numpty - I agree with you. I am a feminist but I will not let every woman off the hook purely because they are women, patriarchy or no patriarchy.

I can kind of see where migsy is coming from I think. She was gang raped as a young girl and her bodily autonomy and her control was taking from her. Maybe subconsciously she believes being a sex worker is taking back control and autonomy in that technically she can accept or reject men as she wants.

But as for Double - she turns her nose up at chivvy, thick and unhygienic men but has no such scruples about intelligent married men she describes as caring and respectable. Caring and respectable my arse - they are lying cheating unfaithful tossers - but OK apparently because they are acquainted with a with a bar of soap and can hold a conversation in the Queen's English. We are talking about a morality free zone here.

grimbletart · 04/02/2014 20:50

My ex husband did nothing but reject me and make me feel like i was on the scrap heap after two children.Perhaps what I enjoy now is all his fault??

Now that is insightful.

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 21:01

"But as for Double - she turns her nose up at chivvy, thick and unhygienic men but has no such scruples about intelligent married men she describes as caring and respectable. Caring and respectable my arse - they are lying cheating unfaithful tossers - but OK apparently because they are acquainted with a with a bar of soap and can hold a conversation in the Queen's English. We are talking about a morality free zone here."

I feel sorry for alot of the married men i see.They are miserable in their day to day life of slogging their guts out for their family,and miss sex and excitement.I would feel equally sorry for women in their position(i was there myself).
I think as the main provider often,and also as they know if they leave their wives they will usually have vastly reduced contact with their children and how much heartache it would cause .They feel their only option is to visit an escort.Many say they feel its kinder to their wives than having an affair as they are not falling head over heels for someone else.
The men I meet nearly always want me to be pleasured too.Its extremely important to them that I am enjoying myself.
I suppose on the whole I have found most women throughout my life to be two faced,bitchy and self absorbed..so I dont feel I should automatically have any loyalty to them just because I have a vagina.

grimbletart · 04/02/2014 21:11

And that post is even more insightful.

They feel their only option is to visit an escort This getting on the AI's sex as human male need territory. Sex is not a need - it may be a want, but none of us entitled to do anything we want and try and justify it by calling it a need.

Many say they feel its kinder to their wives than having an affair as they are not falling head over heels for someone else.

And that takes rationalisation to a new level. Talk about having your cake and eating it.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 04/02/2014 21:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SecretSquirrel33 · 04/02/2014 21:18

Prostitution is something that is never going to go away and I can't see how it is better or safer for the women involved for it to be controlled by the criminal underworld rather than licensed and controlled in a proper legal manor. There will always be an awful side to it with women who have no other choice because of drugs, poverty or other reasons. But there are also women that choose to do it and enjoy it. If these women are allowed to practice in the open and legally then they will be much safer and the money raised from the tax they pay could be used to help the women who don't have any choice. If it was legal also the women who actively choose to do it could maybe eventually be free from the stigma it has and stop been seen as victims or that something is wrong with them, we are all different and enjoy different things including our sexual habits and if you can be paid for what you enjoy and everything is consensual for everyone involved I can't see any problem with it. I also disagree that they are homewreckers or breaking up marriages it is the man who stood and made a commitment to his wife in church or at the registry office who is in the wrong, he alone is the one responsible for any break up of his family and marriage nobody else.

migsy86 · 04/02/2014 21:33

I do feel that these men 'don't' value me at all, beyond what they pay for me. Some days I wish I had a different job, but who loves their job 100% of the time.

Many men say 'its better to do this than have an affair, or 'my wife wont let me do anal ect', as reasons for seeing me. They DO feel they have a right to sex. I don't feel by providing this service I am trampling on trafficking victims, but it is also not my responsibility. I have to focus on mine and my childs needs, my debts and keeping the meter topped up.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 04/02/2014 21:34

Has anyone argued that prostitutes are better and safer if they are controlled by the criminal underworld? Confused

Sex traffickers and pimps are probably the ones who want prostitutes controlled by the criminal underworld, but I doubt they would centre a campaign around it. Thats their nasty little secret.

migsy86 · 04/02/2014 21:47

Real sex workers hate exploitation as much as non sex workers. I think that's one thing we can all agree on.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 04/02/2014 22:00

Pimps and traffickers love exploiting women though. Very profitable.

AI needs to make sure it doesn't play into their hands, to the detriment of the most vulnerable.

FloraFox · 04/02/2014 22:27

numpty Thanks

I agree with everything you've said.

migs and double - what do you think of the women who are in brothels being fucked by 10 - 20 men every day and who are not making loads of money and spending time with scumbags men who will spend hundreds of pounds or dollars for the pleasure of their holes time and expertise? Do you feel that you are better than them?

migsy86 · 04/02/2014 22:38

No Im not better than them Flora. I work at adult parties, do threesomes and gangbangs. I have a "quota" of hours to work everyday. I don't earn megabucks, I am not a 'high class' escort and i see clients for £30 for a 15min appointment.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 04/02/2014 22:46

migsy, your posts make me sad. I can't help but see you as a victim.

They go from gang rape and desperation, to your post of 22:38 - yet you claim to find it fun and empowering. It's like I can see the self preservation mechanism going round.

FloraFox · 04/02/2014 22:48

What is your quota and who sets it? Do you share your income with anyone else?

Why are you doing this? Why is your choice between this and the dole?

migsy86 · 04/02/2014 22:57

I rent a room off a friend and have to make enough to pay them and for an income for me. Im doing it because I have no qualifications, or skills doing anything else. I do enjoy it though, it also works around my child, unless I have to work a night, then my mum will step in.

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 23:04

I don't think anything on this thread has made me feel anything but a bit disappointed in the mass majority of narrow minded viewpoints
And no i dont think i am better than women working in brothels,thats just not my choice.
there will always be different classes of whore just as there are different classes of food,housing,clothing,cars and well..people.
There are high class escorts who have sex with the rich and famous,
i am kind of middle class.And so are my clients.They want to have fun with a woman on their wavelength.

migsy86 · 04/02/2014 23:07

I agree with doublelife. There will be different levels in everything. Im not bothered by it. What I do pays the bills and allows me time with my baby. I offer quickies, I know some who wouldn't even dream of it. Whatever floats your boat really.

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 23:12

in my other job i work caring for women.i have given so much ..and for very little gratitiude to be honest.
I have had more thank you letters from my male clients in a few yrs escorting than in 15 yrs in the other .

migsy86 · 04/02/2014 23:18

Same, although I don't have another job my regulars will often give me tips or presents around my xmas/valentines day. I worked during my pregnancy and often the clients would give me large tips, especially towards the end. There are some good'ns out there.

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 23:22

yes I get that too,perfume,flowers,chocolates,lingerie, but i actually love thankyou emails or letters best of all!

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