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Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 19:22

You know what?? I actually can enjoy a man for more than just WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE or what AGE he is!! Why is it everyone talks about how shallow a person is if he looks for a woman based on aesthetics and yet in this context it is suddenly so abhorrent to fuck a man you dont find physically attractive??
Most of my clients are in their forties,married and well educated with good jobs..ie like most of your partners! Not some mythical dirty old men in rain macs!

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 19:25

Many of us "happy hookers"are also parents..and good ones at that.
I do not think for one second most of us couldnt keep a roof over our childrens heads in other ways...but if we enjoy this and we know we are good at it then we should have every right to.

NumptyNameChange · 04/02/2014 19:30

what does 'enjoy' mean please? do tell me how pretending to be attracted to someone you are NOT attracted to and wouldn't even look at if they weren't paying you and then having him fuck you is enjoyable?

i like men for more than what they look like or what age they are too - that is why i have male friends, why i keep in touch with a professor from years ago whose opinion i respect and whose humour i enjoy. i wouldnt' fuck him though because i'm not attracted to him and it would be an insult to both me and him to do so. but i don't need to because i like him, in some ways love him and enjoy having him in my life on a reciprocally beneficial basis that no one has to pay for.

are you suggesting that the way to prove you're not ageist or overly concerned about aesthetics is to fuck anyone who offers you some money for it? really?

are you too cool with the idea of a daughter of yours following in mummy's footsteps and also spending her life fucking men she wouldnt' touch with a bargepole otherwise for money?

WhentheRed · 04/02/2014 19:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NumptyNameChange · 04/02/2014 19:34

in my opinion being a 'good parent' and particularly a good mother is more than feeding, clothing and not beating and being loving to your kids. it is also about leading an ethical, decent, self respecting and respecting of others life and setting an example of self respect, autonomy and social consideration.

i'm afraid that if i decided to start fucking men for money and calling it a career i would not be worthy of calling myself a good mother to my son. if i had no choice, if a life of horror and addiction and the lack of a passport or whatever meant it was the only way i could keep him safe then yes, but because i 'enjoyed' it and it was the easiest way for me to make money? no.

migsy86 · 04/02/2014 19:38

Im not ashamed that I shag men I don't find attractive for money. And yes I could get another job but nothing will pay me as much as sex work.

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 19:44

well numpty..we'll have to agree to disagree on the good parenting front.
I DO enjoy fucking the men who pay me..not 100% all the time but at least 90%.If i dont enjoy it with someone i dont see them again.
Sometimes,like with a recent client ..I dont particularly enjoy them sexually but find them fascinating to chat to,or really funny,so I still come away happy and glad to have met them.
I must reiterate though that I only meet men who contact me and communicate with me in a way that appeals..I dont reply to text speak or Are you free for a half hr bj? type message.
They have to tell me about them and why they like the sound of me and how long they would like to see me for etc.I decide if they sound like my type of client.

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 19:48

Men i wouldnt touch with a bargepole are the chavvy ,thick ,or unhygienic ones.I just refuse to see them.In a respectful way.
I really dont see how its different to being a masseuse or a reflexologist or chiropodist.OR a doctor.You deal with intimate contact with those you may not find aesthetically pleasing.

NumptyNameChange · 04/02/2014 19:50

and here is the rub for me. the privileged choicey prostitutes and pimps and various hanger on profiteers have the voice, the access to ears, even the most taken for granted privilege of having a computer and knowing english in order to articulate their interests.

on the one hand they want to invisibilise and dissociate their trade from the trafficked, the abused, the addicted, the raped, the coerced and the underage and claim that is nothign to do with their chosen 'job' but simultaneously they want to use their plight and abuse as a way to legitimise their choicy profitable 'business' by pointing to their abuse and saying see, you must make it safe and legal and naice for US to do our work so we don't suffer that. when in reality the people who are really suffering 'that' and have no choice will not be even vaguely protected or have their situations changed in any way by legalisation. in fact their situation will be made worse and more women will be put in their situation because demand will increase and the not licensed brothel next door will become the place where the men who want the cheapest prices, the youngest girls, the most abusive 'sex', the kick of power of knowing she doesn't want to be there etc go. they won't be at all interested in the licensed, taxable, over 18, non drug addicted, english speaking, english looking, etc choosy 'sex workers' are because that's not what they're after.

so ok a few privileged choicy women get to legally make their money and a lot of punters and pimps get to be legitimate whilst using the justification of the danger and suffering of the women who will gain nothing and end up worse off and more numerous thanks to their increased privilege.

i feel hugely for women forced into such work clearly - i want to protect women of the future from being driven into the same hell. THEY matter to me. not women who get off on making money from fucking married men for money. the idea that i woudl put the interests of those women over the interests of the former is colonial at best and just plain sociopathic at worst.

why should some articulate, internet accessing, educated, live in a country with a welfare system, free education and police system get a carte blanche to work as prostitutes free of concern about prosecution or their 'clients' being scared off at the expense of so many other prostituted women? or at the expense of our daughters not having fucking old men presented to them as a legitimate way of making a living?

i'm a radical feminist, i put women first and i try to avoid blaming them for making necessary concessions to survive in patriarchy BUT no way can i stretch to defending them to make what they consider an 'easy living' at the expense of women from less privileged backgrounds and of our daughters.

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 19:51

And I got into this after having casual sexual encounters from men online to broaden my sexual horizons,and discovering from feedback that I am gifted in the sex department.So much like a singer who discovers she has a gift for singing...I decided to use it to give others pleasure while earning too.Not rocket science..

BriarRainbowshimmer · 04/02/2014 19:54

Again I don't understand what enjoying sex has to do with prostituting yourself and just servicing some unattractive buyer and not getting an orgasm. That's the opposite of enjoying and having sex to me.

migsy86 · 04/02/2014 19:54

Easy? Try a gang bang for 4hrs then come back and tell me my job is easy! If you're a rad fem put ME 1st, im a woman, I deserve the right to work in safety!

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 19:55

I feel for women trafficked and drug addicted and abused too,and consider myself a feminist.
I just dont feel what i'm doing is at the expense of them.At all.

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 19:57

And Migsy,I agree of course we have the right to work in safety!

BriarRainbowshimmer · 04/02/2014 19:59

migsy86, are you telling us that men hire you to simulate gangrape.
If so I sincerely wish death upon those men. Probably not a PC thing to say but there is nothing that angers me more than absuive men.
I want all women to be safe from male violence and abuse. If a man like to pay to simulate rape he is not a safe man to be around.

migsy86 · 04/02/2014 20:01

It is not rape. Ive been raped I know the difference. In fact having people compare the two is very upsetting for me. A gang bang is group sex, all consensual though. There is a stark difference!

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 20:04

ofgs!! simulated rape is not the bloody same as actual rape because the woman CONSENTS.
I actually adore simulated gangrape type scenarios,its just fantasy,and it turns me on.It doesnt mean anyone wants to actually do it in reality.

NumptyNameChange · 04/02/2014 20:05

gifted? oh dear lord your delusions are disturbing. you do know what 'gifted' means in the world of punters don't you?

the idea that my whole self esteem would come from men liking fucking me is tragic. it's a phase i passed through and grew out of in my mid teens. i matured, i grew authentic ways of measuring myself rather than getting off on men wanting to fuck me.

my sexuality grew too - i realised pleasure, sex, presence was about a lot more than getting off on someone else's desire or 'want' for me (how tragic).

you seem to think men enjoying fucking you or desiring you is something to brag about or base some sense of self worth on. a lot of men (most notably those who'll fuck prostituted women) would a) fuck anything that moved and b) if it inflated their ego by making them feel like a big man that it was attracted to would probably hand over the keys to their house to.

have you ever had any experience of genuine achievement? genuine excelling? genuine positive feedback based on something on worth?

don't get me wrong i love that my lovers have loved having sex with me - when i was younger there was a hell of a lot of bullshit about how different i was, special, great in bed etc that i would now scoff at. at this point - where the only lovers i have are awesome, impressive, i genuinely want to be with them and they cut all the bullshit detectors dead and they could have lots of beautiful, intelligent women for lovers without having to pay them or subtly imply the offer of marriage, kids and whatever and i am not the youngest or most nubile or easiest woman they could have but they still want me it really IS a compliment. if i was selling myself for a £100 to anyone who didn't physically repulse me and had managed to take a shower their praise or enjoyment would really not be anything to even register other than yeah sure mate, you liked having a pretty girl let you fuck them and there was no other way it was gonna happen.

FACE what you're doing. fine if you want to do it and make money from it and you know, if you're cool with it's damage to others then you live with that and face the karma. but don't pretend it's about being such a lovely wonderful person or lover or so special.

the kind of men who will fuck a prostituted woman will fuck anything. it's not about you. it's about them.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 04/02/2014 20:12

A gang bang is group sex, all consensual though.

Porn has taught me that it's not the same as group sex but that it means many men teaming up to use and penetrate one single woman.

Notice I said simulate not that it actually is rape.
I do think it's abusive though. A sign of misogyny from the men.
And we could debate what "consensual sex" means...

NumptyNameChange · 04/02/2014 20:14

oh and my being a radical feminist has ceased to make me think i should defend women who don't give a flying fuck about women beneath them or 'not their problem'.

i understand women have to survive how they can in a patriarchy and there's a lot i won't judge but actually i've reached a point where if you're willing to willfully fuck over women with less power than you knowing exactly what you're doing and just not give a fuck you're not an ally just because you have a womb.

there are those hankering down to survive and there are those rubbing their hands with glee and making a profit from it and not giving a damn about anyone else.

you double (if you are who you present yourself as) sound like the latter and like you are quite sickly piggy backing on migsy who franky sounds like a traumatised product of a very fucked up system and presumably a fucked up family within that system if she wasn't taken to counselling after being gang raped as a child and a few years later ended up desperate and destitute enough to sell herself.

why should women have to suffer so you can 'choose' to make a living in the easiest, quickest, way you can? you are sitting next to the pimps and selling women with them.

NumptyNameChange · 04/02/2014 20:17

yes briar - would an incredibly wealthy powerful woman agree to have sex with a man she found unattractive and wouldn't touch with a barge pole for a job? no. how does consent get framed where it's consent that is only given because you have to give it for financial reasons?

are the happy prostitutes on here really saying they'd still have sex with men they find hideous if they won the lottery tomorrow?

clearly we're seeing 'consent' in very different terms. to me consent means joyful, desireful, hungry participation not resigning yourself to be used as a wank sock in return for £100.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 04/02/2014 20:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

migsy86 · 04/02/2014 20:20

Yes its one woman x amount of men. Hardly easy work though is it? I have been thinking about this all day. I can see both sides of the argument. But for me it boils down to choice. And yes choosing to work a gang bang was tough for me, I had to put my past experience behind me and put my work head on. I didn't just sit there afterwards 'rubbing my hands with glee'!

NumptyNameChange · 04/02/2014 20:21

and do you concede in any way that every time you let a man 'buy' you you are reinforcing that women are things to be used, who can be bought, who exist to service men, who have no real bodily integrity. do you get that you are contributing to that legacy for your daughters?

AND hello lurkers! if you're reading but saying nothing whilst working in prostitution or considering it or whatever and you're hearing what i'm saying then HEAR it. your gut knows what it knows. rationalising yourself out of your values and instincts will seriously fuck.you.up.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 04/02/2014 20:21

I actually adore simulated gangrape type scenarios,its just fantasy,and it turns me on.It doesnt mean anyone wants to actually do it in reality.

Er. How can you actually know that??

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