Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Guest posts

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
WhentheRed · 04/02/2014 23:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 23:28

migsy..how do you feel about the fact that the married men are cheating? Do you still view them as a "good" person.
I do,because I think men genuinely see me the way we might see our beauty therapist or a day at the spa ..a pampering treat so they can go home to their family less stressed and happier..although I couldnt cheat on someone myself personally.I know they genuinely dont want to hurt their wives and do love them.But they want more.

doublelife111 · 04/02/2014 23:33

and what about male escorts?? I may well pay for a hunky 30 yr old stallion when i am 55 or 60..why the hell not! I would need to read his reviews first though to decide if he was good enough!

FloraFox · 04/02/2014 23:37

Grim indeed.

double: "And no i dont think i am better than women working in brothels,thats just not my choice."

Do you think that was simply their choice? You can overlook the reality of what is happening to them because it was their "choice"?

and "there will always be different classes of whore" here I think you are showing your hand, double. You are othering women less fortunate than you and consigning them to miserable lives because they are a "different class of whore". It the fucking epitome of patriarchy and the epitome of narrow-mindedness to think that is all there is for other women.

This thread is very sad. I'm sad for your life migsy and what has happened to you to make you so damaged. double I'm not sure if you are real but if you are, your "I'm all right Jack" attitude disgusts me. Not because I give a shit about your desire to engage in man-pleasing sex but because you prioritise your service to men over the lives of other women.

This thread evidences the dangers of fetishising "choice" - you can "choose" your way to no choices or grim choices but it's all okay or your own fault if you can put the magic halo of choice around it.

ChocFudgeCake · 04/02/2014 23:45

Fully agree with the OP

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 00:10

In reply to double, I do see the majority of my clients as good men. They see sex with an escort as their needs being met because they aren't at home. They don't view it as cheating, more like a bit of fun/release.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 05/02/2014 00:22

That's it - blame other women for not 'meeting their needs at home'. They're good men. Hmm Not cheating my arse.

I blame the patriarchy.

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 00:30

Im not blaming anyone. I just see it as a fact. In all honesty I could live without sex. Its fun but I don't need to have it. My clients obviously DO need to.

WhentheRed · 05/02/2014 01:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 05/02/2014 09:03

Humans want sex but can survive without it, it's not a need. There is always masturbation.
What's going on here is male entitlement. These men think they deserve to use women's bodies in any way the want. So when the wife doesn't want to be used like a blowup doll he goes to another woman, one who doesn't want him but he can pay for. That mindset is the problem.

It has made me sad to read your posts, migsy. I wish you the best for the future.

KimberlyC · 05/02/2014 13:53

Well, I'll jump in.

Don't bother feeling sorry for me, ladies. I'm exactly like you in every way: an educated, loving mother with interests and hobbies. I just happen to make a lot of money because I don't mind having sex with strangers.

I am not addicted to drugs. I am not controlled by anyone. I do only what I want to do. The vast majority of my clients are absolutely lovely men. A surprising percentage of them are downright handsome and fun to be with. A very few aren't entirely loveable but I am always able to refuse to see anyone I choose to.

Having sex with these men doesn't make me feel bad at all. Being looked at as if I'm sort of freak or amoral monster, or patronised like I'm some pathetic weakling, on the other hand, does bother me quite a lot.

horsetowater · 05/02/2014 14:08

Migsy the longer you do this the harder it will be to get a career of any kind off the ground.

You can get your rent paid - that's what we have state benefits for, you will get child benefit and enough money to live on.

If this was made illegal you would have to find an alternative. Why not find it now?

horsetowater · 05/02/2014 14:13

I had a chat with my daughter about this subject yesterday asked her what she thinks and she said the only way people get into prostitution is by grooming. I though that was quite astute. We were comparing it to other jobs that people don't like, like binmen - you could say the same for podiatry or facials. Not pleasant but someone has to do it. But these jobs, although they are a bit distasteful and you might not want to do it initially, don't involve you personally.

Prostitution is also similar to acting, where you dissociate yourself to play a part however actors are part of something bigger and the process is played out in public so there is an element of informal approval or sanction.

But prostitution involves both the physically repugnant or risky (being very physically involved with a complete stranger - not naturally healthy).

It not only takes your body but it takes your soul.

The only way to get involved in this kind of 'work' is by a process of desensitisation (the physical part) and dissociation (the mental part). Actors are trained in the dissociation, they are never two people at the same time, they are

Grooming is a process of being drawn into doing something that we don't want to do goes against our instinct.

KimberlyC · 05/02/2014 14:20

"You can get your rent paid - that's what we have state benefits for, you will get child benefit and enough money to live on.

If this was made illegal you would have to find an alternative. Why not find it now?"

I know you're addressing Migsy, and not me, but I'd like to address these points: I don't want to be on benefits. I am happy to pay taxes on my earnings as a prostitute and pay my own way.

And making it illegal wouldn't deter me from doing it, it would just make what I do harder. I've lived in a country where it was illegal and I did it there. Depending on local law enforcement, it's usually not really an issue. At least this way I can hold my head high and say that what I do is legal and that I pay my taxes.

KimberlyC · 05/02/2014 14:25

And, nobody "groomed" me to get into prostitution. I did it entirely on my own from the very first time I did it.

Unless by "grooming" you mean something more vague like the patriarchy telling me that I ought to shave my body hair off or be "nice" to people or that sort of thing. I suppose we're all conditioned to some extent in that manner.

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 14:33

I was on the dole for a month before I did this. I was tough and like Kimberly I pay taxes so i am contributing to society and feel good about it.

Horse to water you have described sex work perfectly. I hve a different name I use, when im at 'work' im her. I take none of my baggage to work and bring none home with me. It doesn't effect my soul because my emotions and sex are 2 different things, for me personally.

Was I 'groomed', well no. I was behind on my rent and someone offered me a 'job'. I went in with my eyes open and never looked back. If it wasn't for sex work I don't know where id be.

Beachcomber · 05/02/2014 14:58

Migsy86, all girls and women are groomed to some extent or another. All of us.

The other day I watched a video of a talk by Gail Dines who campaigns against the porn industry. At the end of her talk she touched on socialization and explained how she had recently interviewed a (male) sex offender who had groomed and abused a (female) minor. She quoted him as saying the following;

"society did most of the grooming for me".

Which is very very insightful.

Grooming does not have to be an act that one individual does to another individual. Grooming can be a series of acts interfaced with an environment - and social conditioning is very much part of that.

Migsy86 forgive me for commenting on something so personal, but the fact that you were the victim of gang rape as a child, and that threesomes and gang bangs are acts that you do in prostitution, is more than likely connected. I see your gang rape as a form of grooming. A very violent and traumatizing one that I am very very sorry to hear was done to you.

KimberlyC · 05/02/2014 15:06

"Migsy86 forgive me for commenting on something so personal, but the fact that you were the victim of gang rape as a child, and that threesomes and gang bangs are acts that you do in prostitution, is more than likely connected. I see your gang rape as a form of grooming. A very violent and traumatizing one that I am very very sorry to hear was done to you."

Can't you see that what you're saying to her is "you were raped and that damaged you. Now you are broken and no longer an autonomous adult with opinions I need respect."

Stop doing that to people. It's fucking obnoxious.

NumptyNameChange · 05/02/2014 15:13

did it occur to you migs that they didn't give you bigger tips because they were 'nice' and helping you in your hour of need but because they got off on a woman letting them fuck them for £30 whilst she was pregnant.

will your child know one day that mummy let strangers perform quickies on her for small change whilst she was growing in her womb?

this is just awful reading.

NumptyNameChange · 05/02/2014 15:14

and just to point out the obvious we don't know if the incoming 'i'm a happy hooker and i love it and i have total autonomy over how i work and do it purely out of joy' posters coming in now are actually who they say they are. not saying they're not but let's face it we have no way of knowing and this thread in undoubtedly attracting attention from pimps and punters.

Beachcomber · 05/02/2014 15:20

Again Migsy86 forgive me for commenting on your personal circumstances but has anyone ever talked to you about 'trauma reenactment'?

It is an attempt to process traumatic events that caused deep distress to a person by re-enacting the trauma. It can be analysed as a way of trying to regain control and make sense of what has happened. Unfortunately it can be a viscous cycle as the person is re-traumatized by the reenactments and develops deeper and deeper feelings of dissociation in order to cope.

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 15:20

I have read mumsnet before but this was the only post I felt strong enough about to post. I also wouldn't describe myself as a 'happy hooker' I will be the first to admit I don't do it purely out of joy. I wont tell my child I work when I was pregnant, I hope they never find out.

NumptyNameChange · 05/02/2014 15:23

migsy i didn't mean you actually - you are acknowledging wider factors.

why do hope your child will never find out?

KimberlyC · 05/02/2014 15:25

Well, anyone who wants to can pm me and I'll send them a link to my website.

I'm a real woman who is telling the truth about her own experiences.

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 15:26

Ive never had any form of counselling so never heard of trauma re-enactment.

And I suppose I feel bad for working when pregnant. I do have guilt over that part.