Bright child has no friends at preschool

[Tetherless]

My son started at preschool in September, having turned 3 last May (so is still 3). He’d never been to childcare before and we’d had a very isolated existence during covid as all family live abroad and we had to shield for the first lockdown. He struggled a lot settling in initially - wouldn’t sit with other children at meals, cried at drop off etc - but by the end of the first term he was joining in with everything, got on really well with the staff and seemed to me to have made huge progress.

He didn’t play with other kids at all at first but now does to a limited degree (apparently mainly when he can lead the activity). He much prefers talking to the adults. The staff have said that they are concerned with his social communication because he doesn’t have friends yet and have mentioned ASD as something they are thinking about.

DS is and always has been incredibly advanced - he met all milestones early, particularly those relating to communication (babbled with consonants at 4 months, pointing and first words at 8 months, sentences at 13 months). His maths is similarly advanced and he is extremely musical. He can read pretty well (on year 1 books atm). He is incredibly sensitive, imaginative, has a fantastic memory and sense of humour and is creative with a very wide range of interests. Motor skills wise he walked early, could ride a bike before he was 3, draws really well and starting to write. He has no sensory issues, eats and sleeps well and I have never considered him to have any kind of rigidness in terms of approach to routines. He’s generally pretty flexible but will sometimes kick off if he doesn’t get what he wants (which I thought was typical of his age). He is a bit of a stickler for the rules when playing games and that’s one of the things that nursery has cited (in addition to his preference for talking to adults) as “evidence” that he may be on the spectrum.

It has never crossed my mind that he is anything other than a bright but neurotypical child. Quite how bright I’m not sure. I feel that his issues making friends and preferring adults stem from a combination of natural shyness (DH and I both shy, academically high achieving kids), lack of practice due to covid and being used to being with adults, and difficulty engaging with peers whose language and interests are very different from his.

I feel that nursery has totally got it wrong but am conscious of course that they have a lot of experience (though possibly not with a child with this particular combination of circumstances). I feel slightly trapped in a parallel universe where they are seeing a completely different child from the one we see at home. They don’t seem to see his intelligence as a factor in his interactions with peers and seem keen to label him which seems crazy to me.

Should I be concerned? Is there anything I should be saying/doing with them or with him? Do I need to help him more with friendships or will it come with time? I feel slightly at a loss.

Totally - what you said exactly. The OP as described has so many traits!

@MaChienEstUnDick

Difficulty settling/coping with the transition from school to nursery - difficulty with transitions is a flag, while there were mitigating circumstances nursery are still right to factor this into their thinking

Difficulties with social communication - social communication disorder is a diagnosis in its own right by the way, again that's a flag

Preference for adults - that's because adults model their communication styles and adapt for the child, it's easier. Another flag.

Hyperlexia - another one.

Stickler for the rules - I'd be wanting to understand how that shows up in nursery, you also say he's quite flexible but the two things don't typically go together. Being a stickler for the rules at home isn't an issue, it's something we praise, but that may be showing up in a different way with other children.

I must stress, I am not saying in any way shape or form that this is ASD or that nursery are right. All I'm saying is, they've gathered a wee collection of flags to show you - now it's up to you to decide what to do with it. IMO, there's no harm or foul getting an opinion or referral from your GP.

Thank you - this is really helpful.

Re the rules thing, he isn’t focused on rules at all at home in daily life. We don’t have strict routines and things change a lot because his dad and I both work long hours and travel so different things happen with different people at different times. If we’re playing a game that has rules, he will stick to them. But if I cheated for a joke he’d find it hilarious.

At nursery they went on a trip and explained some rules at the start (about staying near the teachers, not throwing litter etc). Apparently he was good at remembering those, could repeat them back to the teacher and suggested a new rule to add to the list. I think they thought that his enthusiasm for adding to their list was relevant.

What exactly do you want us to tell you?

To me he sounds like a bright but shy almost four year old who needs to be left to his own devices to develop his own personality.

At the end of the day it's more work their end to bring up the possibility with you, what ulterior motive do you think they have? They will have cared for hundreds (if not more) young children between them, and if it's something they think might be a possibility it's good they've mentioned it whilst he's still young. Whether he is or isn't, he's still the same child and he won't change just because he does/doesn't turn out to have it, but if he does (which he might not) having a diagnosis will help him access support through school if needed.

I’m just really confused.

Like many posters have said that my entire description of him suggests he has ASD, but most of the info that I can find is lists like this, where he doesn’t fit any of those criteria, apart from the making friends one which is in the older children box. So maybe I just fundamentally don’t understand what autism actually is or can’t find the right resources.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/autism/signs/children/

Ah OP. Firstly, what a shock you must have had. It isn't easy to hear that something may be wrong with your child, or to wonder if there is something wrong. You must be so worried and upset.

That NHS link to signs of autism is just garbage. None of that describes my nearly 3 year old who we suspect is autistic. He has some similar traits to your son but is speech delayed.

Take some time out to think and regroup. If your son is autistic he is still the same little boy who sounds absolutely fabulous.

I think we are so used to seeing an outdated description and depiction of autism that actually, being neurodiverse is far more common than you think.

OP, you've had plenty of posters sharing their experiences with you, explaining how they relate and you're knocking every single one back.

Why are you so upset? If he is autistic, does it change him in anyway? No.

If you're just going to keep putting up obstacles then why bother asking? It's actually coming across quite offensive and insensitive now.

[quote Tetherless]I’m just really confused.

Like many posters have said that my entire description of him suggests he has ASD, but most of the info that I can find is lists like this, where he doesn’t fit any of those criteria, apart from the making friends one which is in the older children box. So maybe I just fundamentally don’t understand what autism actually is or can’t find the right resources.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/autism/signs/children/[/quote]
Maybe listen to the professionals then? . No one is going to come on here and say nah he absolutely doesn't as how would anyone of us know? The question I think it's worth you pondering is what your concerns are- he is the same child either way, that won't change.

I don’t mean to sound defensive and I really appreciate all the replies. Thanks to everyone who posted.

@Tetherless I would arrange a meeting with the pre-school manager and SENCO as soon as possible. I would be feeling very much as you are if my daughter's nursery said something similar to me and I wasn't expecting it.

The thing is - all of his peers are lockdown children. Many will have been shielding. Many will have had limited experience of socialising beyond their parents. However, the nursery is saying your son is different from the cohort that is the same age.

The autism description you have linked to are very "bald". In an able 'categorizer' we would probably expect to see early interest in pattern, letters, numbers. Identifying colours, shapes well before age 2, probably including "hexagon" etc not just the basic 4. Being specific and a little pedantic about language. For example being very clear that this is an ape because it has no tail and therefore can't be a monkey, or correcting when an adult says "don't jump in the puddles" to say "I am not jumping, I am stepping". A tendency to seek out adults and for speech to be highly content focused ie telling them facts about dinosaurs or reporting infractions by others. Distress caused by things not being "as they should be" - eg someone cheating in a game, or sometimes a misinterpreting of social intent, eg interpreting an accidental bump as purposeful. We might expect more interest in older children (who will adapt their language) or younger children (who will generally allow domination and rule setting).

We might expect a high level of knowledge in one or two areas of interest. Thomas the tank engine is classic, but could be dinosaurs, animals, football, car types, anything really.

Autism teams are creaking under referral pressures ATM - it's likely even if you agree tomorrow to refer that he will be waiting 1-2 years.
So do have a good think before deciding he's definitely NT.

15 years on diagnostic team btw.

My boys were exactly the same and didn't play much with other kids when they were young. They were also very reserved and quiet at school. However they were happy, playful noisy kids at home and played well with each other and their siblings. I had a couple of teachers mention their concerns but I knew my kids were ok because I saw them outside the school environment.
As the kids got older they ended up having loads of friends and no issues at all. I think they found the other kids too wild, boisterous and silly when they first started school and although they could behave like that themselves at school they didn't want to at school.

I'm glad I just left them to their own devices.

My DS was very similar at the same age and, just like in your case, ASD was suggested by the nursery and then dispelled by a visiting specialist.

Roll on to school and within months the school were expressing concerns about social skills (never intelligence - he was very bright).

Every year there were more concerns but no diagnosis until he was 9 and his lack of organisation, anxiety and issues with other children were too significant to ignore.

He's 25 now, has an Honours degree in his area of interest but still lives with us and struggles with social anxiety, orgisation and time management. I love having him around and every year has shown some improvement in his function, albeit in baby steps. He's happy and fulfilled living his relatively narrow life - happier than many people his age.

They don’t seem to see his intelligence as a factor in his interactions with peers and seem keen to label him which seems crazy to me.

I wonder if you're so invested in seeing his intelligence as a factor in his social interactions that you're losing sight of the fact that your ds is actually struggling in this area. I see this a lot in some parents - that they somehow explain away their child's poor social skills by pretending that they're an inevitable consequence of high intelligence. Unfortunately, this means that there is never any serious attempt to identify the underlying cause of the problem, and it does the child a huge disservice in my view.

Exceptional intelligence really doesn't automatically mean that children will struggle to interact with their peers. On the contrary, some gifted children have very high levels of emotionally intelligence and this can mean that they're socially very gifted too, so it isn't the intelligence per se that is causing the problem. Social awkwardness doesn't just go with the territory if you're very bright, and we need to stop using that as an excuse, because it results in children not getting the help that they may desperately need.

If a child is struggling socially, it isn't OK in my view to just shrug and assume it's because they're clever. It isn't. They might be very shy/lacking in confidence. They might have very poor social skills that need further development. They might have social communication difficulties as a result of neurodiversity etc. There are lots of possible explanations, but intelligence alone isn't one of them. The nursery will have has experience of dealing with a lot of children over the years. They might be right on this occasion or they might not, but if they're suggesting ASD, I would listen.

Some professionals consider Autism is a social communication disorder. Children lack the skills to understand and process verbal and non verbal social cues and respond appropriately

It is early days, you may decide to investigate further or not. Communication gets more complex and often kids can start to struggle at 8-10.

@Tetherless

The social communication difficulties they have identified are that he prefers to talk to adults and will seek out staff rather than choosing to play with other kids. He does play with the other kids when it is facilitated by them. He doesn’t initiate it himself. That’s the extent of their concerns.

I’m not minimising it because I really want him to make friends with his peers, but what I am questioning is how that - without more - suggests a possible autism diagnosis.

Op DS isn't super clever but socially, he sounds exactly like your DS. in fact we had the opposite problem - severe speech delay and he was academically behind at that age. He still talks to adults better than kids at 6 although "at" rather than "to" and his interactions with others are largely lead by others. No autism. Just more exposure to adults

Why not pay for a private assessment? Will be money well spent given how much you are struggling with this.

OP I am quite disturbed by some of your comments which are ill-informed, misguided and frankly rather ignorant. I am sure that is not your intention but your comments appear to represent autism as some kind of terrible affliction, which is massively offensive. I will try to reply properly tomorrow.

I don’t think any setting would suggest this lightly.

In meetings with parents in the past year to bring this up as something for them to consider:

1. Dad said we google it every night and we think the same. Mum said “no we don’t, there is nothing wrong with my son”

We assured her this is not something “wrong”. Child now has attends a specialist setting.

1. Dad ( also ND) said “Yes we will follow up”

Mum said “no, she has social anxiety. I’m a doctor, I would know”. At home they discussed it and went for a private diagnosis and within three weeks the reports have come back as ASD and ADHD.

1. Parents asked for some more links to reading on it and then came back and asked for a referral to an Ed Psych as many traits felt similar. Waiting on an outcome.

In our school these conversations are considered deeply before mentioning to families as we start to look at patterns of behaviour, responses and traits. At first it will be a teacher’s instinct that will raise a question and then there will be observations by leadership and the SENco. We have to be pretty secure in what we are saying because we know nobody wants their child to have any additional challenges in an already demanding childhood.

Only you will know if it was a considered discussion or an off the cuff remark. This is only the start of a long educational journey.

OP all those online checklists/tests for ASD are way too broad and tend to focus on the media stereotype of a non verbal autistic child with behavioural problems, developmental delays and no desire to make eye contact/be touched/interact with their care givers. That stereotype is not a typical ND child. It's definitely not the kids we're all describing to you here. Please take advantage of the chance to have your LO assessed with the support and backing of his nursery. It's so valuable and I wish I could have had the same for my DS.

For many children at this age, autism only presents as small under currents and themes....a little quirk here or there etc it's not always immediately obvious.

But when they get to key stage 2, the wheels can well and truly fall off. You can see how the social communication environment ramps up and children's expectations change and suddenly the child can't manage, can't keep up with the chat and children think they're weird. School demands get higher and sensory environment changes, child can't manage. Then you're looking at school refusal or school based dysregulation and a deep wish someone had pointed out sooner what the future might hold so you would have had early input to stop it getting to this point.

It's not some awful disease but a child with autism needs understanding and support in school. And at home, but it's usually the safe space where parents don't see what everyone else does - I say that from experience!

He sounds similar to mine except for the isolation with covid and the bike riding. Mine was very advanced with maths and just somehow knew how to read without every really having to learn. He was diagnosed with asd age 6. He didn’t have any obvious sensory issues at nursery age but they’ve become more apparent as he got older. His first play school suspected asd when he was 3, I saw health visitor and she thought he was just a very bright boy not being stimulated enough, she recommended a change of nursery and he got on well there and then moved into reception and again got on well. Year one is where the wheels came off. I think looking it was a mixture of the increased rigid ness and demands and also the sensory environment of the school he was in

@Tetherless

I don’t mean to sound defensive and I really appreciate all the replies. Thanks to everyone who posted.

I have a post on here from years ago when my child was going through same I’ll try and find thread and tag you. I’m under a different name on it

We have a similar child at nursery, however it is very obvious asd is at play because they cannot emotionally regulate themselves, cannot sit for a story or do any group times, mimics others words and behaviour during play to make friends and has no concept of personal space etc. they can read etc but also doesn't understand what they are reading, so will read but you ask them to explain what has happened they cannot answer the questions.

How long has your son been at the nursery? It will take time for them to gather evidence to support what they are suggesting. The fact he doesn't play all the time or start play wouldn't be a huge concern at three but something we would keep an eye on. We've found most of our new starters are behind with personal, social and emotional development due to the pandemic and not having a chance to put these skills to practise so that is one of our main focuses at the moment.

@justanothermanicmonday21

We have a similar child at nursery, however it is very obvious asd is at play because they cannot emotionally regulate themselves, cannot sit for a story or do any group times, mimics others words and behaviour during play to make friends and has no concept of personal space etc. they can read etc but also doesn't understand what they are reading, so will read but you ask them to explain what has happened they cannot answer the questions.

How long has your son been at the nursery? It will take time for them to gather evidence to support what they are suggesting. The fact he doesn't play all the time or start play wouldn't be a huge concern at three but something we would keep an eye on. We've found most of our new starters are behind with personal, social and emotional development due to the pandemic and not having a chance to put these skills to practise so that is one of our main focuses at the moment.

Re the not understanding reading thing. My son would never answer questions but I knew he must at least partially understand what he was reading particularly when he got onto chapter books as otherwise he would have just been bored reading words and he loved reading. We had a teacher who always used to say that he had no comprehension was just reading word etc etc. Following year he had a great teacher who discovered he just didn’t like being asked questions on what he’d read so she got round it in a different way and his comprehension is actually very good he just won’t always do things in the way a typical child would