Bright child has no friends at preschool

[Tetherless]

My son started at preschool in September, having turned 3 last May (so is still 3). He’d never been to childcare before and we’d had a very isolated existence during covid as all family live abroad and we had to shield for the first lockdown. He struggled a lot settling in initially - wouldn’t sit with other children at meals, cried at drop off etc - but by the end of the first term he was joining in with everything, got on really well with the staff and seemed to me to have made huge progress.

He didn’t play with other kids at all at first but now does to a limited degree (apparently mainly when he can lead the activity). He much prefers talking to the adults. The staff have said that they are concerned with his social communication because he doesn’t have friends yet and have mentioned ASD as something they are thinking about.

DS is and always has been incredibly advanced - he met all milestones early, particularly those relating to communication (babbled with consonants at 4 months, pointing and first words at 8 months, sentences at 13 months). His maths is similarly advanced and he is extremely musical. He can read pretty well (on year 1 books atm). He is incredibly sensitive, imaginative, has a fantastic memory and sense of humour and is creative with a very wide range of interests. Motor skills wise he walked early, could ride a bike before he was 3, draws really well and starting to write. He has no sensory issues, eats and sleeps well and I have never considered him to have any kind of rigidness in terms of approach to routines. He’s generally pretty flexible but will sometimes kick off if he doesn’t get what he wants (which I thought was typical of his age). He is a bit of a stickler for the rules when playing games and that’s one of the things that nursery has cited (in addition to his preference for talking to adults) as “evidence” that he may be on the spectrum.

It has never crossed my mind that he is anything other than a bright but neurotypical child. Quite how bright I’m not sure. I feel that his issues making friends and preferring adults stem from a combination of natural shyness (DH and I both shy, academically high achieving kids), lack of practice due to covid and being used to being with adults, and difficulty engaging with peers whose language and interests are very different from his.

I feel that nursery has totally got it wrong but am conscious of course that they have a lot of experience (though possibly not with a child with this particular combination of circumstances). I feel slightly trapped in a parallel universe where they are seeing a completely different child from the one we see at home. They don’t seem to see his intelligence as a factor in his interactions with peers and seem keen to label him which seems crazy to me.

Should I be concerned? Is there anything I should be saying/doing with them or with him? Do I need to help him more with friendships or will it come with time? I feel slightly at a loss.

@mymindisamuckingfuddle I’m glad it worked for you but you don’t need a diagnosis for an EHCP.

You certainly have to be careful, TheYearOfSmallThings, but not all private diagnoses are the same. I'm in Ireland, not the UK, but there are now a number of local clinics that do a multidisciplinary diagnosis for autism. They do look for input from school etc. In fact the HSE (Irish equivalent of NHS) also outsource to them so I think they're credible.
There are also lone practitioners who I might be more wary of.
Where I am, waiting lists seem to move more quickly for younger children. I waited a year for the HSE, also in the belief that it would be a more credible diagnosis (the clinics I mentioned weren't available then), before giving up and going private.

[quote RussianSpy101]@mymindisamuckingfuddle I’m glad it worked for you but you don’t need a diagnosis for an EHCP.[/quote]
You certainly don't, correct. They're needs based not diagnosis based, as it should be.

However, with the back up of a formal diagnosis it is far easier to obtain one with less of a battle!

not all private diagnoses are the same

Oh I totally agree, some are excellent - and the quality of NHS can be variable. It is slightly different in Ireland too, where you would be waiting even longer than the UK, and since many people have insurance they will be hopefully use approved practitioners.

@BessieFinknottle Research has shown that early intervention improves outcomes, though you're right in that they haven't looked so much at how outcome varies by age of intervention specifically. I realised when reading this how often we are told early intervention improves outcomes, and that I hadn’t ever seen the research to back this up or what age and demographics were included and I suppose also what IQ ranges. Also I wonder if “happiness” and “wellbeing” featured in the analysis as we know that for HFA often MH is a huge issue in later life. Also I would suggest that many of the interventions are part of modern good parenting so possibly impact is less now???

I should also add @Tetherless that I understand why you have found the suggestion that your child may possibly have ASD upsetting. Especially if you have no experience with or family history of autism, meaning you don't (understandably) have a good knowledge of it.

You're right to say it is a disability, an impairment. It is, and that is not an easy fact to accept when someone directs it at your child.

Autism is, as everyone knows a huge spectrum with massive differences in presentation and the level of difficulty/impact it has on a persons life. For some, sadly, autism impacts them so severely - especially when they also have learning difficulties and/or other conditions which also affect them. For some, this will mean a lifetime of partially supported living or even full dependency on a carer for life.

For others, particularly those with no learning difficulties or high intelligence/excellent academics although autism is part of them and still impacts them daily, it does not mean this. It means that growing up, they will need support to learn how to interact in a world that isn't designed with their needs in mind, particularly when it comes to social expectations. It means that they might excel in school with their learning but struggle with friendships because they don't 'get' their peers, so they need some help with that. It may mean that they have sensory sensitivities that mean they find noise (for example) very difficult to cope with, or certain food textures unbearable, or certain clothes irritating and impossible to wear.

And then there a whole raft of people between those two areas and a whole load of other things that may be difficult. But you get my drift, I hope.

There are lots of highly successful people out there with autism who manage to grow up well supported with parents/teachers etc etc supporting them to navigate the parts of life that they find challenging. There are so many adults now (me included) who are diagnosed late who find out they're autistic and go 'aha! That's what it was all this time!' but in the interim have managed to create a happy and successful life for themselves.

I am autistic and have ADHD. Pre-children I had a successful and well paid management career. I have a lovely family home, a great marriage, financial stability, two beautiful girls who I am a carer too as well as a Mum because of their own autism, but I am not worried for their future because they are just like me. And I did it without any extra support, without realising that the things I found a challenge were unusual. I am also able to volunteer and support other families who have children who are neurodivergent.

I realise that my family is fortunate and I don't write this to make light of the struggles that lots of families face when they have a child with autism. I know from my volunteer work that there are lots of parents and children who have it way way harder than we do. And I won't lie, some days in our house are really tough going. But I hope you can see that if your child should be diagnosed with autism, it is not always a terrible, devastating thing once you get over the initial shock. It is a difference that requires help, understanding, support, patience. a thick skin and lots of education as a parent.

@mymindisamuckingfuddle

It’s really interesting to read your story, you sound like me. It was DS1 getting diagnosed which made me think: aha! The anxiety and depression questionnaire for the ADHD diagnosis was like reading a description of myself as a kid, I couldn’t believe it. I haven’t sought a diagnosis but I’m being much kinder to myself these days!

Personally I’d only go for a private diagnosis if you were sure your child had asd and were looking to get him diagnosed as it’s a lot quicker than the nhs. there is no such thing as a negative diagnosis for asd as it’s not like something where they can do a blood test to see if they do or don’t have. If your child isn’t diagnosed through private assessment it will just tell you there isn’t enough evidence for diagnosis at this point in time not that he doesn’t have asd.

tetherless

A landmark Ofsted report has just been released detailing the impact of covid on your child's age group and word for word covers exactly as you describe with your son. Lack of social confidence, children can not communicate or connect with peers, speech delays etc etc.

Check out the Times today to see the full article, it will go some way to reassuring you I think.

[quote BelleTheBananas]@mymindisamuckingfuddle

It’s really interesting to read your story, you sound like me. It was DS1 getting diagnosed which made me think: aha! The anxiety and depression questionnaire for the ADHD diagnosis was like reading a description of myself as a kid, I couldn’t believe it. I haven’t sought a diagnosis but I’m being much kinder to myself these days![/quote]
It's a dawning realisation isn't it. Y'know, I'm ok but this, this, and this have always been super tricky for me.... but that's a sign of ASD/ADHD...oh that's why!

I thought everyone found certain things hard/impossible/brain meltingly awful. Turns out they don't! Tis just being ND, and that's ok. Once you know, you can manage it, make allowances for it'd, medicate it if it's ADHD and that's appropriate for you (and for me, that's helped hugely).

I hope the OP comes back because I fear she has read all the posts and been a bit scared off (not that anyone's been awful, just it's a lot to take it if it's a new possibility for you).

I’m here!

I appreciate all the input. I had a play date with my son yesterday and it was a success. He was shy at the beginning but by the end chatting to the other child (who was also shy to start with). As I said nursery have also sent me videos of him with other kids and it’s similar.

Of course it may transpire later that he does have ASD but at the moment as far as I’m concerned there is no suggestion that he does (unless you subscribe to the belief that intelligence = a red flag).

My initial feeling was that he was just shy and anxious in the very big group at nursery (there are 100 kids and it is free flow) and perhaps over thinking things. There is a big gulf between his language skills and his emotional maturity which has no doubt caused him problems. Throw covid into the mix as well and I think that fully explains why he is slow to take the initiative with peers but feels more confident with adults.

The good thing about this is that I had previously assumed that nursery would give him all the socialisation opportunities he needed, and I haven’t been proactive at all in organising play dates for him. I now see I could and should be doing so much more to help him, including just talking about some of this stuff more with him. If he does have ASD then I assume that all of the strategies adopted by me and nursery would be the same anyway.

The other thing to think about -- given your update about the kind of nursery he's in - is noise sensitivity, which my child also had.

Too much sensory input (like 100 children in the corridor getting their coats on in reception) made them shut down entirely, and toilets with hand driers were out of bounds for years. It might be that the busyness of the place is really over-stimulating and so he just can't think to talk as well.

The good news about that one is that they mostly grow out of it!

Yes I think the busyness is almost certainly a factor. There are so many kids and loads of different patterns of attendance so different ones in and out all through the day. Going from really only seeing me and his dad for 18 months to that will have been such a shock to him.

He’s not at all sensitive to noise generally though - musical household and he has always been a big fan of appliances, the noisier the better (drills being his favourite 🤦‍♀️).

@Tetherless

Yes I think the busyness is almost certainly a factor. There are so many kids and loads of different patterns of attendance so different ones in and out all through the day. Going from really only seeing me and his dad for 18 months to that will have been such a shock to him.

He’s not at all sensitive to noise generally though - musical household and he has always been a big fan of appliances, the noisier the better (drills being his favourite 🤦‍♀️).

I think it’s just a case of keeping an open mind and going with the flow. My child was diagnosed age 6 but was and us very socialable just struggled in the busy noisy environment. He is also fine with loud noises just not lots of noises at the same time like you get in a class with lots of different people chatting. Not sure if you saw my thread from 8 years ago I linked you in as we went through very similar with concerns being raised age 2. If he does have asd it will become apparent at some point in time, if he doesn’t it won’t. Either way you arranging some play dates and concentrating on social will be of benefit anyway. People bang on about early intervention but in reality support available is pretty rubbish so your not missing out on anything by not getting an early diagnosis.

I worked in early years for several years and am now an advisory teacher in SEN. Your little boy sounds like he's doing so well.

I think the ASD comment from nursery was a bit of a red herring. It gets bandied about far too easily IMO.
It sounds to me like your ds shows some behaviour that has raised a flag for the staff (who do see a wide range of children so it's worth taking note) but not enough to indicate a need to take things further right now.

I think he does sound a bit shy, probably an introvert and not used to mixing with lots of children his age. However you and the nursery are working on this and helping him develop his social skills.

Is he going to school in September? I would wait and see how things are when he starts school and if there are still concerns then you and the school can think about what to do next.

I’m autistic and I have two DD’s who also have a diagnosis. I also have a 2 year old who seems highly intelligent. But in time it’s possible that she could be on the spectrum. Her communication etc is and always has been excellent but she’s been able to read numbers and letters from about 18 months and is speaks in long sentences up to 9 words.

I myself didn’t know I was autistic until I was diagnosed at 37. And the thing is, it’s not mild and I’m a long way from NT even though I was considered academic etc.

So I think it’s useful to hear from nursery staff because they will know when a child seems different.

The thing is Op your son is advanced and that in itself isn't standard. So he may be high functioning, but I wouldn't rule out autism. I believe they don't so much diagnose Asperger's these days but it could be that ..

www.autismspeaks.org/types-autism-what-asperger-syndrome

[quote anewway]The thing is Op your son is advanced and that in itself isn't standard. So he may be high functioning, but I wouldn't rule out autism. I believe they don't so much diagnose Asperger's these days but it could be that ..

www.autismspeaks.org/types-autism-what-asperger-syndrome[/quote]
Aspergers is a term no longer used, due to its association with the Nazi doctor and eugenics.

You are now either autistic or you're not.

Aspergers is a term no longer used, due to its association with the Nazi doctor and eugenics. Asperger was a Dr in a children’s hospital during the war in Germany. Diagnosis of Aspergers and PDD (nos) were merged with autism about four years ago in line with present thinking and DSM V. While there are many people who don’t like Aspergers history (ie being German and staying there working through the war) I don’t think the change in diagnosis was in response to that. As for eugenics, we saw just how far from ideal British thinking was at the beginning of the pandemic when is was decided that those with learning disability weren’t to be given access to icu intubation and the horrific loss of life among that cohort.

@MondaysChild7

My eldest’s ASD diagnosis features the terms Asperger’s in brackets after ASD L1, because it’s shorthand for autism without a learning disability.

Yes, it's level 1, 2 or 3. I have L1. L1 just means that your IQ is average or above.

@MondaysChild7 that’s very much what it DOESN'T mean. The new diagnostic criteria goes to huge lengths to separate intellectual ability and autism. The levels refer to social and behave communication and strength of focus on restricted interests. They are nothing to do with how intelligent you are.

I do wish we could draw a clear line and understand that there are high iq individuals who’s autism means they don’t speak and don’t interact and do have limited interest and fierce but inflexible focus.

IQ has nothing to do with whether or not you're disabled. It's only one type of test. You've completely misunderstood what I'm saying. You can have a high IQ and be unable to work. As an autistic person myself, I know that better than anyone.

If you have a diagnosis, it's likely that the autism will impact on your life significantly, whatever 'level' they say it is.

@MondaysChild7 well you said L1 just means that your IQ is average or above. which is NOT what it means so I’m not sure what you are trying to say

If you have a diagnosis, it's likely that the autism will impact on your life significantly, whatever 'level' they say it is. no they MUST impact otherwise you wouldn’t fulfill the criteria

From section D Symptoms cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning.